Can the IOM be more independent ?

[Apple]

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/politics/could-the-isle-of-man-try-to-gain-more-independence-571282

 

Very interesting article that raises some intriguing questions about how far the island could progress the issues underpinning further independent decision making. Does the island have the right people, skills and systems develop his ideas at this time, or is a long game required.

Does the population want more independence though ?

Edited November 12, 2022 by Apple
add bits to consider

[asitis]

It would be very nice to think we had the skills to pursue greater autonomy. However, Government have proven itself to be incompetent in so many areas over many years, it be folly to assume we could do this !

Sorry but I believe we need the backstop of the UK.

[GD4ELI]

36 minutes ago, Apple said:

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/politics/could-the-isle-of-man-try-to-gain-more-independence-571282

Very interesting article that raises some intriguing questions about how far the island could progress the issues underpinning further independent decision making. Does the island have the right people, skills and systems develop his ideas at this time, or is a long game required.

Does the population want more independence though ?

At present the IOM can hardly tie its own shoelaces.

Intelligent people are not moving for independence, rather integration or at the very least closer ties.

 

[John Wright]

6 minutes ago, GD4ELI said:

At present the IOM can hardly tie its own shoelaces.

Intelligent people are not moving for independence, rather integration or at the very least closer ties.

 

You don’t have to wear shoes with shoelaces.

You are JRM and I claim £5.

( and JRM has nanny to tie his laces ) 

[GD4ELI]

27 minutes ago, John Wright said:

You don’t have to wear shoes with shoelaces.

You are JRM and I claim £5.

( and JRM has nanny to tie his laces ) 

I have no idea who JRM is, and your attitude is sad.

[emesde]

1 hour ago, GD4ELI said:

I have no idea who JRM is

Jacob Rees-Mogg

[Non-Believer]

Given the standard of governance that has been exhibited over the past few years, and continues to be so, I'd suggest that moves towards further "independence" would instigate something of a mass exit for many.

The exception being those who think that forelock tugging to our elected and a diet of spuds and herring should never have stopped and those circles who do/have traditionally done extremely well out of the current set up; and we all know who they are.

[0bserver]

We can't resurface 1.6 miles of road in a competent manner. Why would Independence be a good idea?

[Apple]

18 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Given the standard of governance that has been exhibited over the past few years, and continues to be so, I'd suggest that moves towards further "independence" would instigate something of a mass exit for many.

I'll admit that was a dynamic I didn't consider. That of course flies in the face of Alfs current plan.

 

18 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

Why would Independence be a good idea?

I have no preference at the  moment , certainly full independence is probably a step too far at the moment, but maybe there are some merits for the island along the lines mentioned in the article. (like Scotland and Ireland)

[Non-Believer]

2 minutes ago, Apple said:

I'll admit that was a dynamic I didn't consider. That of course flies in the face of Alfs current plan.

 

I have no preference at the  moment , certainly full independence is probably a step too far at the moment, but maybe there are some merits for the island along the lines mentioned in the article. (like Scotland and Ireland)

The viability of much of this Island's economy is predicated on an annual rebate of close to half a billion pounds of VAT. Surely any move towards "independence" might jeopardise that, can anyone imagine what the consequences of a reduction or even removal of that revenue would be? Let alone the standard of government that is outed on an almost monthly basis these days.

[doc.fixit]

But we could levy our own income tax and if the VAT we receive at the moment is accurate there should not be a difference in tax take? IF of course what we get now is accurate?

[John Wright]

6 hours ago, GD4ELI said:

I have no idea who JRM is, and your attitude is sad.

Sorry you feel like that. My opinion is that your attitude is the sad one.

Its an appropriate thing to have a debate about, and the Island shouldn’t be dismissed, nor Manx residents, as not being able to tie shoe laces. 

The Island has come a long way since 1961, when expenditure control was handed over by the UK/Governor to Tynwald and the Finance Board.

Yes, things are wrong, times are tough. But the things that are wrong are no worse, and the waste proportionally no more, probably less, than in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, much of the EU, USA. On the corruption index we are possibly  good by comparison.

I know no one who really suggests becoming an English or Scottish county. 

I know lots who think we should explore our identity and whether it’s time for a once in a generation shift.

Whether that’s a merge, further divergence, the status quo, or a move to an associated state type arrangement, like mini countries have with Aus, NZ, US, I don’t know. 

I do know that dismissing the debate before it’s even begun is shortsighted.

Theres a CoMin report from 2000 that analyses some options, and which, in compilation, indicates that Westminster wouldn’t stand in our way ( if it didn’t damage their interests ). 

[GD4ELI]

16 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Yes, things are wrong, times are tough. But the things that are wrong are no worse, and the waste proportionally no more, probably less, than in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, much of the EU, USA. On the corruption index we are possibly  good by comparison.

Oh really? You should take those rose-tinted spectacles off sometime.

And don't forget the IOM isn't paying a serious defence contribution like grown-up countries do. Pro-rata with the UK this would be ~£55 million per annum based on the 2021 UK defence spending. 

[John Wright]

interesting article examining the issue by Rick Faragher.

Politics across the UK has changed a lot in recent years. At times, the speed of this can feel supersonic.

Last month, Rishi Sunak became the UK’s third prime minister in eight weeks. Fair to say it’s been quite a year in Westminster.

But significant change – events that could cause a firm ripple effect on Manx shores – isn’t exclusive to London. It’s also happening closer to home.

A quarter-century has almost passed since devolution in the UK which, for the first time in generations, saw many powers from Parliament being passed to elected bodies in Edinburgh, Belfast and Cardiff.

Sinn Féin is also predicted to perform very well in the Irish Republic’s next general election.

The SNP and Sinn Féin have some similarities: they both seek separation from the UK, they’re big supporters of the EU, they enjoy significant backing from young voters and, crucially, both perform strongly at the polls.

Of course, success at the ballot box does not automatically convert to constitutional change. 

The criteria for a Northern Ireland secretary of state to call a border poll is vague. If it does happen, it could still be some years away and there would also be no guarantee of a nationalist victory.

In Scotland, the ‘Yes’ vote fell short in 2014. Fifty-five per cent of voters wanted to remain part of the UK. 

But that was before Brexit. 

For many people across these islands, the result of the 2016 referendum made them look at politics more closely and what it means for their region.

People in the Isle of Man didn’t get to vote but the result meant the island’s relationship with the EU also ceased.

Aspects of employment, freedom of movement and, perhaps, a sense of European identity within the Isle of Man were impacted.

Of course, some people on the island strongly support Brexit and see it a positive move.

So, surrounded by evolving international relations and tied to a country which could change shape one day, where does this leave the Isle of Man?

‘The arc since the 1960s has been constantly towards greater autonomy, and greater independence of Manx institutions from the UK,’ says Peter Edge, originally from Ballasalla and now professor of law at Oxford Brookes University.

‘A change in the territorial reach of the UK is likely to lead to serious reflection on the constitution of the UK. This might well include consideration of the status of the crown dependencies,”’ he adds.

Professor Edge highlights that there’s a political framework already in place if the Isle of Man wanted to pursue greater independence, as laid out in a Council of Ministers report in 2000.

The island’s political status and history are important. Many people claim that Tynwald is the world’s longest-continuing parliament. The Isle of Man could, on paper at least, claim to be the world’s oldest country.

Its constitutional status might not be straightforward, but it is very interesting.

In basic terms, despite a very large amount of autonomy, there is no full Manx independence.

The island is a dependent possession of the British crown which exercises its power on the advice of the UK government, mostly via the Department of Justice.

But to what extent have Manx people had a say in this arrangement?

‘I’m not aware that the people of the Isle of Man have ever voted on the island’s constitutional status,’ says Dr Catriona Mackie who lectures in Manx history and heritage at UCM, a course validated by the University of Chester.

There’s also the growing influence of ‘identity politics’ across these islands. This is when people associate a nationality or culture with a set of political values. For example, a progressive view on social issues and a centre-left economy. It can be a huge factor at the polls.

But, despite the island’s ancient status, is there a broad set of values for what ‘Manx’ means in 2022?

‘What it means to be Manx… is always in a state of flux. As society and culture change, so too does our identity as a nation,’ says Dr Mackie.

‘The island has seen profound social, cultural, and economic changes over the last 150 years, all of which have contributed to new “versions” of Manx identity,’ she adds.

If the Isle of Man wanted a broader reach, it wouldn’t necessarily have to cut its ties to the UK entirely.

‘One model to go further might be a free associate state,’ says Professor Peter Edge.

‘We can see this in, for instance, the relationship of Niue with New Zealand, also in a range of relationships between island states and the USA.’”

A free associate state is similar to a crown dependency, except it might be sovereign: a stand-alone country in its own right with its own citizenship, passport and international relations. 

But it has a clear, fixed, working relationship with a bigger, more powerful, country. This arrangement is recognised internationally and the details vary for each agreement.

The Marshall Islands and Palau, for example, are all countries in free association with the United States.

Dr Caroline Morris is from the Centre for Small States at Queen Mary University in London.

She says there are common themes between crown dependencies and free associate states. 

‘Both are products of history. The concept of the state of free association was a de-colonial device used and encouraged by the United Nations as a step towards full independence in the post-Second World War era,’ she says.

So, how might the UK react is there were moves by the Isle of Man to seek greater independence? 

Of all the talking points surrounding further autonomy for the Isle of Man, it’s perhaps a question rarely considered.

Dr Morris says Westminster would probably be broadly supportive.

‘Typically, the approach of the UK government to its non-sovereign territories has been that they must be able to exercise their right to self-determination and the government will abide by the will of the people in that territory,’ she says.

The likelihood, too, is that a new Isle of Man-UK relationship that left Britain with obligations would need to also take account of the UK’s national interest, as well as the will of the Manx people.

Moves towards greater independence would require much consideration and dialogue, not just from politicians but also within Manx society.

What would the Isle of Man’s relationship with political institutions like the European Union and the United Nations look like?

What would the criteria for Manx citizenship be?

Would the island retain the British monarch as Lord of Mann or have a publicly elected head of state like the Republic of Ireland?

Plenty of questions would need to be worked through.

Manx independence isn’t a new concept. It’s cropped up in conversations from Port Erin to Ramsey and everywhere in between for generations.

But these islands have entered a political era that may see the issue discussed, increasingly, on a more meaningful level.

NOTE

Rick Faragher is a BBC journalist and presenter based in Belfast who began his career at Isle of Man Newspapers. The Onchan man has covered hundreds of stories across Northern Ireland and beyond, including features about the Isle of Man for BBC Breakfast and Football Focus. The 37-year-old also presents live coverage of the TT

[John Wright]

4 minutes ago, GD4ELI said:

Oh really? You should take those rose-tinted spectacles off sometime.

And don't forget the IOM isn't paying a serious defence contribution like grown-up countries do. Pro-rata with the UK this would be ~£55 million per annum based on the 2021 UK defence spending. 

Except UK defence spending is wasteful and excessive. France gets the same level of defence in manpower and assets for half the amount the UK pay.

And who are we supposed to be defending against?

Rose tinted? I’ve not expressed a view from remote Cornwall or one way or the other on the issue. Just that there should be a debate.