Can the IOM be more independent ?

[A fool and his money.....]

19 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

The UK MoD has had a long history of squandering billions in pursuing, "We must have our own thing" projects when off-the-peg-options were/are readily available. It supported whole UK contract industries in doing this although those off-the-peg options are now becoming more commonplace through financial restrictions.

But if you want a couple of examples, there were/are the billions spent trying to turn Nimrod into our own AWACS despite the known age and shortcomings of the aircraft, which were eventually scrapped in favour of the off the shelf purchase; Trident which is still not operational; and a huge amount of in-fighting between the Army and the RAF over responsibility for helicopters, Wildcat (or Future Lynx as the project was known) vs off the shelf purchase of Merlin or Blackhawk.

The list goes on and on. Regular reports make reference to expensive procurement failures.

To say nothing of the thousands of lives that have been consistently and needlessly lost worldwide in the name of "defence".

[Boris Johnson]

3 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Hundreds, if not thousands. Especially immigrant manual workers, doing jobs Singaporeans feel beneath them, who are housed in dormitory style blocks.

From my experience of the regulations and lock down elsewhere, and my reading of what happened in CI we were at the lower end of severity of sanction.

Bansko, total lock down, armed police and military on all roads out. Took the embassy a fortnight to arrange coaches and escorts to Sofia airport to fly people home. Bulgarians rang up police and alleged various Brit visitors had covid, and weren’t isolating, arrested forcefully tested, detained. The embassy arranged re testing and it proved negative. This included an 8 year old. The BG authorities then conveniently “lost” the PCR results. Paul escaped Bansko 2 days before the lockdown. Drove to Greece, ferry to Italy, then drove to Spain.

Igualada, Spain, similar total lock down. No one in, no one out, for 28 days. Armed police on all roads. Our place is 20km from Igualada. We’ve friends there. 

Similar all over Spain, Italy, Balkans. Having to carry a paper form, or later register an e-form that you were travelling for one of very few bonafide reasons. If you got stopped and weren’t carrying, and didn’t have proof, penalties were severe. 

Hundreds in not thousands in a country with millions still sounds a lot less than 70 people on an island of 80k?

[John Wright]

2 minutes ago, Boris Johnson said:

Hundreds in not thousands in a country with millions still sounds a lot less than 70 people on an island of 80k?

Lots of places didn’t send people directly to prison, at least not in a way that shows in crime stats.

But the penalties they imposed ended up with imprisonment. 

CI imposed huge, unaffordable, financial penalties, instead of immediate prison,  with days in prison in default.  You need to ask how many couldn’t pay and ended up in prison. I understand more than IoM. But not according to the statistics.

Singapore locked the gastarbeiters in the compounds. Not imprisonment directly, but the same effect. Many died because of total lack of care. They weren’t considered important or human enough.

Apart from a few examples, the fuel stop, the escaping violence, ours had already had one, or more, warnings, cautions, were repeat breachers. 

Anyway hopefully it’ll be examined in the enquiry. We did some things well. We got somethings wrong.

Tell me a country or territory that didn’t.

[Boris Johnson]

13 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Lots of places didn’t send people directly to prison, at least not in a way that shows in crime stats.

But the penalties they imposed ended up with imprisonment. 

CI imposed huge, unaffordable, financial penalties, instead of immediate prison,  with days in prison in default.  You need to ask how many couldn’t pay and ended up in prison. I understand more than IoM. But not according to the statistics.

Singapore locked the gastarbeiters in the compounds. Not imprisonment directly, but the same effect. Many died because of total lack of care. They weren’t considered important or human enough.

Apart from a few examples, the fuel stop, the escaping violence, ours had already had one, or more, warnings, cautions, were repeat breachers. 

Anyway hopefully it’ll be examined in the enquiry. We did some things well. We got somethings wrong.

Tell me a country or territory that didn’t.

I really hope the enquiry will show up the failings, and the good stuff.

I won't hold my breath however.

 

[momo65]

1 hour ago, Augustus said:

That's a bit harsh. Anyone'd think he had a Jealous Mind.

Bugger autocorrect

[Max Power]

20 hours ago, GD4ELI said:

And what would you have sone in 1939/ 1940 to defend the CI? It would have been impossible. The IOM was an important asset.

And I'm sure Ronaldsway, Jurby and Andreas would have been useful Nazi assets too! 

In fact we could sell out to the highest bidder as a Naval and Airforce base, imagine the Chinese Navy at anchor in Port St Mary bay.   

[John Wright]

16 minutes ago, Max Power said:

And I'm sure Ronaldsway, Jurby and Andreas would have been useful Nazi assets too! 

In fact we could sell out to the highest bidder as a Naval and Airforce base, imagine the Chinese Navy at anchor in Port St Mary bay.   

That’s what Malta did in the 70’s to supplement the -/6d income tax paid by Brit settlors after the UK navy pulled out.

[Happier diner]

3 hours ago, momo65 said:

It demonstrated perfidious Alvin's commitment to the rest of the British Isles. It would be no different now. It would be deemed impossible to defend IoM and resources focused solely on England

It was nothing to do with that. There was no choice. The British army could not have defended the CIs. It would have been a massive strategic error and maybe cost Britain the war. It was a calculated strategy. Perhaps a terrible decision to have to make. The people if the CIs generally accept this and they just sat tight during their occupation. They didn't do too bad and ultimately they got their freedom back as a result of that strategy. 

[Apple]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

Anyway hopefully it’ll be examined in the enquiry. We did some things well. We got somethings wrong.

Tell me a country or territory that didn’t.

That takes into account that there must have been differences in how the lockdowns were 'policed' and the dealings of those who breached the law due to the differing legislation. The island had some autonomy about how it enforced its own restrictions.

 

[b4mbi]

What hasn't been considered in this thread is how energy security would effect the "independence" discussion.

The development of the gas field has the potential to provide government with the necessary capital revenue to invest fully (without borrowing) in making the island energy independent utilising sustainable renewables.

We would not be beholden to the fluctuations of the global energy markets, so could provide energy to residents and businesses at a lower, predictable  cost. 

Which has the potential to make the Island attractive for business relocations, whilst fulfilling its climate commitments.

 

[Apple]

1 minute ago, b4mbi said:

What hasn't been considered in this thread is how energy security would effect the "independence" discussion.

The development of the gas field has the potential to provide government with the necessary capital revenue to invest fully (without borrowing) in making the island energy independent utilising sustainable renewables.

Good point. Given Sunak's apparent fondness now for all thing green what is the likelihood that this will be met with the UKs approval.

Again an issue that may yet test the extent of the islands independent decision making.

[John Wright]

10 minutes ago, Apple said:

That takes into account that there must have been differences in how the lockdowns were 'policed' and the dealings of those who breached the law due to the differing legislation. The island had some autonomy about how it enforced its own restrictions.

 

Of course. And different places had different imperatives based on geography and infrastructure and culture.

Id certainly like to examine whether we should have locked down borders at all, and if so did we do it too late, and should we have allowed in returning Manx residents subject to self isolation from day one.

[P.K.]

Be aware of this.

The IOM suffers from delusions of "Statehood" that have already cost everyone dear. I'm talking here about the CS/PS grading and therefore salary, lump sum and pension nonsense where those in post get renumerated on the same scale as their UK counterpart despite the fact that there's nothing like the scale of responsibilities to justify it. And there's 10,000 of them...

Move it up a level?

Don't think so....

[Non-Believer]

7 minutes ago, P.K. said:

Be aware of this.

The IOM suffers from delusions of "Statehood" that have already cost everyone dear. I'm talking here about the CS/PS grading and therefore salary, lump sum and pension nonsense where those in post get renumerated on the same scale as their UK counterpart despite the fact that there's nothing like the scale of responsibilities to justify it. And there's 10,000 of them...

Move it up a level?

Don't think so....

It's more than just CS status/remuneration aspirations. It's been something that has infected the whole governance of the Island, continues to do so and Allan Bell (IMHO) was one of the main perpetrators.

Far too many expensive faux pas can be linked to this fatuousness, people chasing and trying to implement a completely un-necessary dream that was far above both their abilities, qualifications and previous experience to do so. The Manx taxpayers have been and still are paying a heavy price.

[Apple]

10 minutes ago, P.K. said:

The IOM suffers from delusions of "Statehood" that have already cost everyone dear. I'm talking here about the CS/PS grading and therefore salary, lump sum and pension nonsense where those in post get renumerated on the same scale as their UK counterpart despite the fact that there's nothing like the scale of responsibilities to justify it. And there's 10,000 of them...

Move it up a level?

Don't think so....

What would you suggest is done about that or is it not really an issue about independence. Where could all these people be employed and  / or what would it mean for the economy. As we are hearing there has to be a level of population to sustain the islands quality of life, but where exactly is that level ?

This is a fairly often repeated idea on here about the public and civil services but it was bad enough during lockdowns.