Man Arrested After Weekend Graffiti Outbreak

[manxman8180]

many people, including some senior ex-politicians other senior business people,

Who's that then?

[Jimcalagon]

The one near Braaid says "Somalia 1960" which, again, was the year that Somalia gained independence from Britain. That worked out well for them, didn't it?

[Shit3hawk]

I hope the courts make him personally remove all the Tags he has painted

[pongo]

the one at ballure said "Cyprus 1969" can anybody explain what that means / refers to.

 

Sounds like they got their Google muddled up then.

 

Cyprus isn't a great example of successful independence. Perhaps these are supposed to be warnings against independence.

[Mike]

I don't fancy emulating Somalia either...

[Albert Tatlock]

many people, including some senior ex-politicians other senior business people, believe there is a much bigger debate that needs to happen on the island as regards: independence; modifying our relationship with the UK; That debate is not happening, and is currently even being discouraged by Tony Brown.

 

To be fair, what exactly do you expect to happen? Were Tony Brown to propose some grand constitutional debate this moment it would probably be taken as sabre rattling in Westminster. Secondly, the issue of modifying our constitutional staus requires a massive amount of ground work before any such discussion takes place. The economic basis for independence has to be thoroughly examined, the legal issues brought to light, domestic political reform and the diplomatic and international context considered. Other factors, such as how any such move for independence would be carried out, how the provision of higher education and other services would work, and so on and so forth.

 

This is a major undertaking, and if it's going to be done it needs to be done properly, requiring a large investment of time, money and manpower in reviewing and reporting our current status and future possibilities before anything even resembling a discussion can begin to take place, with the task made all the more difficult by the fact that we're such a small community and, unlike places like Cyprus, don't really have a pre-existing relationship with a country other than the UK. Of course, Tony Brown et al could indeed begin commissioning such reports with a view to providing the foundation for a future debate, but I'm willing to bet that were it not for this Mannin Seyr business there would be quite a few people accusing them of wasting money and trying to piss off the UK when attention should to be focused on the real problems we already have. It's not a view that I hold, as I agree that it might be beneficial to at least tentatively explore the possibilities, but it doesn't lack some justification.

I disagree that it is the major undertaking you imply it is, much work has been done on it before, and as a result of that work the UK have previously said it is a matter for us through referendum - whatever choice we make - and that they would not stand in our way. This isn't simply a job for consultants writing a report, it's about the Manx people exploring and debating the options - where at the moment that debate is being stifled - even if the status quo was to be the eventual choice. Much expertise in all of these areas is already here. Much of it is defined by simple sentences and facts, not complex reports.

 

I am not arguing for independence, I am simply arguing for the debate to occur, and not just a debate on independence, but on the other available options and combinations of options too, including abroagtion/EU microstate etc. VAT - cut, RHA - cancelled, KSF - what's left to defend or sabre rattle about? when the UK have just repeatedly stuck the very same sabre into us several times? What are the motives of the UK in all this via this effective alienation of the island? What's next?

 

I just think we need to explore and discuss it. And if you listen to many others, including some senior ex-politicians and senior business people such have appeared on Sunday Opinion, in the newspapers, and various business articles etc. you'll find these demands for such a debate aren't just restricted to the witterings and misguided actions of some obscure facebook group.

 

IMO, it is far better to think about and explore and debate possibilities/probabilities, than it is to have to react to them after they have occurred or are suddenly forced and have to be faced up to - reactively. We have enough reactive politics going on now. At the very least, by debating, we would also all know which direction the majority wish to push, and get behind and support those doing the actual pushing - and if the majority happened to want something to be explored more deeply - then so it should be - or not be explored - as the case might be. With the debate stifled we will never know, and will end up, simply, where we end up.

[jim]

Hope they don't send him to Jurby, he's got an important job to be doing.

[VinnieK]

I disagree that it is the major undertaking you imply it is, much work has been done on it before, and as a result of that work the UK have previously said it is a matter for us through referendum - whatever choice we make - and that they would not stand in our way. This isn't simply a job for consultants writing a report, it's about the Manx people exploring and debating the options - where at the moment that debate is being stifled - even if the status quo was to be the eventual choice. Much expertise in all of these areas is already here. Much of it is defined by simple sentences and facts, not complex reports.

 

All very appealing and even poetic, but where's your evidence for this?

 

What, for instance, are the economic benefits and costs of independence? How will our political system have to be reformed? Will we have a written constitution, what form will it take, who will write it and how will it be approved?

 

I can't quite believe that you seem to think that the issue of setting up an independent nation can be framed solely in terms of 'simple sentences and facts', especially when that nation is at such an apparent disadvantage in terms of size and economic composition as is the Island. I agree that perhaps now is the time to begin a tentative exploration of the possibilities, but to pretend that this can be done purely with appeals to the 'the Manx people's will' isn't a serious discussion - I'm sorry but at best it's saloon bar rhetoric.

[aimeejulia]

i think he should be made to clean it up

[censorship]

Have we all decided he's guilty then? As far as I'm aware he's been charged with an offence and hasn't submitted a plea. I thought a person was innocent until proven guilty and to proclaim a person's guilt while proceedings are active is prejudicial and could be considered a contempt of court. Anyone with a legal/media background who could advise?

[Albert Tatlock]

Have we all decided he's guilty then? As far as I'm aware he's been charged with an offence and hasn't submitted a plea. I thought a person was innocent until proven guilty...

Of course, you are right, and I automatically assume innocence until proven guilty. But, someone did this as it is there to see, and I stand by my points, that the whole issue needs treating with sensitivity, and opened up for debate - and MS facebook group, whether it turns out they were involved or not, still needs to be brought back to the realities of existing within a liberal democracy.

[thebees]

What do they want? more so, what did they hope to achieve by doing rubbish graffiti? It might have held more attention & had a positive effect, if it was attractive, like the buildings in Northern Ireland (as an example) as it stands, who ever it was looks like a stupid 13 year old girl with 'period angst problems'.

[censorship]

Have we all decided he's guilty then? As far as I'm aware he's been charged with an offence and hasn't submitted a plea. I thought a person was innocent until proven guilty...

Of course, you are right, and I automatically assume innocence until proven guilty. But, someone did this as it is there to see, and I stand by my points, that the whole issue needs treating with sensitivity, and opened up for debate - and MS facebook group, whether it turns out they were involved or not, still needs to be brought back to the realities of existing within a liberal democracy.

 

I agree with you, was just observing that it is wrong to prejudge this now named individual, either because it is unfair to an innocent man or because it is unfair to society as a whole because, if guilty, he could argue his way out of conviction on he basis of not being able to get a fair trial because everyone has already decided he's guilty before hearing any evidence.

 

Personally, I think the current nationalist movement and online groups are of no weight whatsoever, bringing together self-important egotists who can't achieve in the real world and bored teens looking for an excuse to damage stuff. That said, they do seem a better organised and more viable political option than Mec Vannin ever has.

[I don't know]

Reminds me of the fsfo farce seeing people in the pubs at weekends sporting fsfo badges, spending money earned directly and indirectly in the finance industry

 

We also found fo halloo painted behind a water tank (so daring) in an office block on Athol St. that was built in the 70’s

 

Rebels without a clue the lot of them

 

And did you mean this Government minister.

 

[Topaz]

http://www.nwn-forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3085

 

I found the above interesting.