Tt/mgp Fatalities

[Chinahand]

Rate - you need to consider accident rate.

 

Unfortunately the accident rate for the IOM is probably higher than the UK - I worked out a bit ago that an ordinary biker coming to the IOM for TT fortnight as a spectator faced about twice the risk of dying than if they'd stayed in the UK.

 

But that is comparing one small area with an entire country.

 

The DOT should try and compare the death rate of say the Cat and Fiddle road or the Snake Pass with the death rate of the TT course when it is open to the public.

 

I suspect it is high, but not the worse piece of tarmac in the British Isles.

 

I want to see some signs of progress on safety on the Island - that should apply to both the public road and the racing.

 

I'd like the annual death rate for the TT to be below 0.33 - that is the scientific definition of not certain. Touchwood they can do it by improving safety - but if not they should restrict entry and have a smaller event.

 

The main issue is that safety simply hasn't improved in decades - if you look at the Indy 500 you'll see huge improvements in safety and the number of accidents. That simply hasn't happenned with the TT/M\gP.

 

I imagine safety has improved on public roads - but I do feel it could be improved. Excessive speed in inappropriate road or weather conditions are issues, but yes so is education for other road users - think bike is vital.

[mr blonde]

As someone who was very nearly a TT statistic and still suffering the effects of horrific injuries, I can say that I would do it all again if I could. I certainly wouldn't want anyone trying to tell me that I now live in a world where somebody believes that it is unacceptable for me to participate in something that they have no interest or involvement in!

 

I knew a good many riders who have lost their lives, and some may say that it is an old cliche saying that they knew the risks, I can assure you that they did! One good friend of mine had even had three attempts on Everest and had raced on the mountain circuit for thirty years before losing his life during the TT. He was very much aware of the risks.

 

The loss of any life is tragic and I know it may be hard to believe, the TT and MGP actually enrich the lives of competitors. This is why they are willing to accept the risks involved. I am sure that this is difficult to understand by those who have never experienced racing over the mountain circuit or had the desire to do so, but has anyone the right to prevent others from doing so?

 

I don't believe that the government should be taken to task for sanctioning the races, they are part of our heritage, like it or not. I believe that there is still a majority of locals who support the TT and that the non supporters are right to object if they believe that they are morally right. I just don't believe that they are.

 

I can understand the issues of a little disruption during the TT, but if you lived near any major event venue you would have to endure this.

 

The best and most sensible post of this thread.

 

Agreed.

[ThankU]

The TT is as safe its even going to be, other road races that are part of the International Road Racing Championship are worse than the TT

[Max Power]

I have to say that many opportunities have been lost to make the TT circuit safer over many years. Hedges and walls could have been removed or eased as a long term development in black spot areas. In some places roadside furniture could have been better placed, kerbs eased, mountain fences moved back and verges made smoother to prevent injury in mounds and ruts. The rock wall created at the 27th milestone is an example of a created danger and oportunity lost. I know of a few recent fatalities at that point which could have been avoided if the inside fence was moved and the wall had not been there! The fact that some ares have had these changes carried out even 30 odd years ago shows that there is an awareness but little will.

 

I feel that these changes if started in the early days would have saved many lives and serious injuries. I still don't think that this should detract from the event as the risks are assessed by the riders.

 

The main safety feature of the TT and MGP is the Medical Rescue service which is world class and far superior even to that at MotoGP events.

[Monkey boy]

I'm pretty sure the Karnage in Iraq, Afghanistan & now Libiya as well as the Falklands, Bosnia etc. etc. etc were state sponsored & all certainly had many more deaths than the TT has ever had. The IOM is traditionally a peaceful nation.

Some of the Bullshit MDO & China man have come out with just goes to underline my point about most negative comment on the TT - absolute bollocks which bears no resemblance to the truth whatsoever.

 

Yes and your comment just goes to underline the kind of idiot response that helps the anti-tt arguement even further.

 

Yes the various wars are state sponsored.

 

They are however not sponsored as tourist sporting events staged for the entertainment of the public.

Well that's OK then. State sponsored death is acceptable in the name of national greed as long as it's not in the name of entertainment. What a fuckwit.

[Monkey boy]

I have to say that many opportunities have been lost to make the TT circuit safer over many years. Hedges and walls could have been removed or eased as a long term development in black spot areas. In some places roadside furniture could have been better placed, kerbs eased, mountain fences moved back and verges made smoother to prevent injury in mounds and ruts. The rock wall created at the 27th milestone is an example of a created danger and oportunity lost. I know of a few recent fatalities at that point which could have been avoided if the inside fence was moved and the wall had not been there! The fact that some ares have had these changes carried out even 30 odd years ago shows that there is an awareness but little will.

 

I feel that these changes if started in the early days would have saved many lives and serious injuries. I still don't think that this should detract from the event as the risks are assessed by the riders.

 

The main safety feature of the TT and MGP is the Medical Rescue service which is world class and far superior even to that at MotoGP events.

I totally agree, for eleven months of the year they seem to put road signs etc in stupid places without a thought for the TT, very short sited .

[Max Power]

As someone who was very nearly a TT statistic and still suffering the effects of horrific injuries, I can say that I would do it all again if I could. I certainly wouldn't want anyone trying to tell me that I now live in a world where somebody believes that it is unacceptable for me to participate in something that they have no interest or involvement in!

 

Like many people on here I am totally unable to discover any logic in the belief that unless you take part in something you are disqualified from holding a valid opinion about it.

 

 

I knew a good many riders who have lost their lives, and some may say that it is an old cliche saying that they knew the risks, I can assure you that they did! One good friend of mine had even had three attempts on Everest and had raced on the mountain circuit for thirty years before losing his life during the TT. He was very much aware of the risks.

 

And that makes it okay for Government to organise and promote excessively dangerous sports in the name of profit? I don't think so.

 

The loss of any life is tragic and I know it may be hard to believe, the TT and MGP actually enrich the lives of competitors. This is why they are willing to accept the risks involved. I am sure that this is difficult to understand by those who have never experienced racing over the mountain circuit or had the desire to do so, but has anyone the right to prevent others from doing so?

 

The question is not whether we should prevent you from doing so (although I think you'll find that the laws governing road users are designed specifically to achieve that purpose) but whether we as a nation should be providing the platform for you to do so in the name of enriching the Government coffers. Many people find that morally indefensible.

 

I don't believe that the government should be taken to task for sanctioning the races, they are part of our heritage, like it or not.

 

Just the same as Gladiatorial combat is part of Italian heritage? Or bare-knuckle fighting part of the rich tradition that is boxing?

 

I believe that there is still a majority of locals who support the TT and that the non supporters are right to object if they believe that they are morally right. I just don't believe that they are.

 

Fair comment. But worth remembering that popular support is no guarantee of excellence. Adolf Hitler was very popular, but that turned out not to be much of a recommendation in the end. (Not really Godwin's Law, btw)

 

 

I can understand the issues of a little disruption during the TT, but if you lived near any major event venue you would have to endure this.

 

Fair comment also. But few other events involve wholesale closure of major arterial routes for two weeks at a time, so it is a trifle unusual, and if you want the TTY to continue it's no good just saying "it's been here lionger than you have" or "there's always a boat in the morning." Serious TT supporters MUST address issues like this or forfeit their case.

Pretty weak responses johnnyrotten!

I didn't say that anyone was not entitled to an opinion or any such thing as "I've lived here longer than you have" or even mentioned boats at nine o'clock?

I think you are talking about a lack of conformity to your sensibilities, I can undertand that but I ask that you understand the sensibilities of competitors, organisers and supporters of the TT.

It's not good enough that you should be able to just brand an opposing view as mindless without questions being asked. There are opposing views and I unfortunately don't agree with yours.

 

Exaggerating the road closing times does not serve the argument well either. There are alternatives, the roads are closed after busy periods and only three working days are involved. To call them major arterial roads is a bit much, the mountain has nothing on it and the coast road is an option. Peel can be reached via the Cooil and Kirk Michael can be reached via Peel. Ramsey is easily reached and the whole north of the island, The south is open completely and the centre of the island is not cut off.

The organisers have bent over backwards to accomodate and there are several crossing points during breaks.

[NAIRB]

veryone is entitled to their own opinions the anti TT lobby will never agree with the TT supporters and vis versa, unless you have been involved with the Races (TT and MGP) you can't fully understand the attraction ,but no one forces the riders at gun point to line up on Glencrutchery Road its their choice and has cost them a considerable amount of money to be there.

 

How anyone can say its state sponsored carnage is bollocks, its a motorcycle road Race and believe it or not Racing can be Dangerous it actually states on the TT and MGP entry form RISK OF DEATH and then you Sign it.

 

I do agree that some, but by no means all the visiting motorcyclists do get a bit giddy once on the islands roads, But I can't accept the statement they would be less likely to be killed or injured if they stayed at home, During the summer in the UK motorcyclists are killed and injured every weekend, due to speed, poor riding, or the fault of other road users, and peoples lives are changed forever, (just the same as on the Island during race weeks)

 

Some posters have compared Motorcycle sport to military conflict in Afghanistan, the only similarity is the guys on the front line getting killed know the risks and are passionate about what they are doing and again no one made them join the forces and there the similarity ends

 

The only down side to the race weeks in my view is the disruption to daily life but again its not as the road closures come as a surprise

 

Every one has their own views on the Races for what ever reason, and always will have ,

[Lost Login]

veryone is entitled to their own opinions the anti TT lobby will never agree with the TT supporters and vis versa, unless you have been involved with the Races (TT and MGP) you can't fully understand the attraction ,

 

That is always a good cop out "unless you are involved you can not understand". Basically you are saying that you are involved you have no right to comment. I could say the counter to your point of view is that if you are involved you can not understand how non motorcyclists and the rest of the world view the TT.

[MilitantDogOwner]

veryone is entitled to their own opinions the anti TT lobby will never agree with the TT supporters and vis versa, unless you have been involved with the Races (TT and MGP) you can't fully understand the attraction ,

 

That is always a good cop out "unless you are involved you can not understand". Basically you are saying that you are involved you have no right to comment. I could say the counter to your point of view is that if you are involved you can not understand how non motorcyclists and the rest of the world view the TT.

 

i.e. The majority.

[jonnyrotten]

As someone who was very nearly a TT statistic and still suffering the effects of horrific injuries, I can say that I would do it all again if I could. I certainly wouldn't want anyone trying to tell me that I now live in a world where somebody believes that it is unacceptable for me to participate in something that they have no interest or involvement in!

 

Like many people on here I am totally unable to discover any logic in the belief that unless you take part in something you are disqualified from holding a valid opinion about it.

 

 

I knew a good many riders who have lost their lives, and some may say that it is an old cliche saying that they knew the risks, I can assure you that they did! One good friend of mine had even had three attempts on Everest and had raced on the mountain circuit for thirty years before losing his life during the TT. He was very much aware of the risks.

 

And that makes it okay for Government to organise and promote excessively dangerous sports in the name of profit? I don't think so.

 

The loss of any life is tragic and I know it may be hard to believe, the TT and MGP actually enrich the lives of competitors. This is why they are willing to accept the risks involved. I am sure that this is difficult to understand by those who have never experienced racing over the mountain circuit or had the desire to do so, but has anyone the right to prevent others from doing so?

 

The question is not whether we should prevent you from doing so (although I think you'll find that the laws governing road users are designed specifically to achieve that purpose) but whether we as a nation should be providing the platform for you to do so in the name of enriching the Government coffers. Many people find that morally indefensible.

 

I don't believe that the government should be taken to task for sanctioning the races, they are part of our heritage, like it or not.

 

Just the same as Gladiatorial combat is part of Italian heritage? Or bare-knuckle fighting part of the rich tradition that is boxing?

 

I believe that there is still a majority of locals who support the TT and that the non supporters are right to object if they believe that they are morally right. I just don't believe that they are.

 

Fair comment. But worth remembering that popular support is no guarantee of excellence. Adolf Hitler was very popular, but that turned out not to be much of a recommendation in the end. (Not really Godwin's Law, btw)

 

 

I can understand the issues of a little disruption during the TT, but if you lived near any major event venue you would have to endure this.

 

Fair comment also. But few other events involve wholesale closure of major arterial routes for two weeks at a time, so it is a trifle unusual, and if you want the TTY to continue it's no good just saying "it's been here lionger than you have" or "there's always a boat in the morning." Serious TT supporters MUST address issues like this or forfeit their case.

Pretty weak responses johnnyrotten!

I didn't say that anyone was not entitled to an opinion or any such thing as "I've lived here longer than you have" or even mentioned boats at nine o'clock?

I think you are talking about a lack of conformity to your sensibilities, I can undertand that but I ask that you understand the sensibilities of competitors, organisers and supporters of the TT.

It's not good enough that you should be able to just brand an opposing view as mindless without questions being asked. There are opposing views and I unfortunately don't agree with yours.

 

Exaggerating the road closing times does not serve the argument well either. There are alternatives, the roads are closed after busy periods and only three working days are involved. To call them major arterial roads is a bit much, the mountain has nothing on it and the coast road is an option. Peel can be reached via the Cooil and Kirk Michael can be reached via Peel. Ramsey is easily reached and the whole north of the island, The south is open completely and the centre of the island is not cut off.

The organisers have bent over backwards to accomodate and there are several crossing points during breaks.

 

No, you didn't say anyone wasn't entitled to an opinion. You just said that you didn't want "people who have no interest or involvement" saying you couldn't take part. Amounts to the same thing, since by implication you're saying that the only people who you would accept that from are those with interest or involvement.

 

Erm, mindless. I branded other opinions mindless? Show me where?

 

And I think your nice long paragraph about how we can all get round the road closures if we want really underlines the fact that there are two weeks of traffic chaos and logjam in Douglas. And the roads which are closed by the TT are indeed the major arterial routes on the Island. Not the M25, perhaps, but vital nonetheless. The very fact that organisers have to 'bend over backwards' (A) illuminates the fact that major measures beed to be taken to keep the Island moving and (B) carries an implicit belief that they're doing everyone a favour by trying to help out.

 

And what about the central issue - that of government sponsorship, support for and organisation of a race that is too fast for its environment, too dangerous for its participants and spectators and is not just allowed to continue, it's held up as an example of all that is good about the Isle of Man.

 

They know the risks - so does everyone who rides a bike or drives a car, but we still have traffic laws to stop them behaving dangerously and putting their own and other peoples' lives at risk It's not good enough to say they do it because they want to, or that nobody makes them. We encourage them to do it and make it possible for them to do it, and the moral responsibility for what happens rests with government.

[WTF]

They know the risks - so does everyone who rides a bike or drives a car, but we still have traffic laws to stop them behaving dangerously and putting their own and other peoples' lives at risk It's not good enough to say they do it because they want to, or that nobody makes them. We encourage them to do it and make it possible for them to do it, and the moral responsibility for what happens rests with government.

 

 

 

so does that mean anything the government has a hand in that allows people to have a fatality should be stopped?? smoking? we hear all about human rights etc, smoking is upto the smoker, but as soon as it is racing vehicles, no no, we must stop this waste of life? far more people die from smoke and drink related stuff than will ever die racing bikes.

[jonnyrotten]

so does that mean anything the government has a hand in that allows people to have a fatality should be stopped?? smoking? we hear all about human rights etc, smoking is upto the smoker, but as soon as it is racing vehicles, no no, we must stop this waste of life? far more people die from smoke and drink related stuff than will ever die racing bikes.

 

Two things here: first of all, the fact that something else is also dangerous doesn't make the TT okay.

 

Second - smoking. A whole other moral cesspool, but since you ask - yes. Smoking is not just dangerous but the product, if used correctly and in accordance with manufacturer's instructions will almost certainly shorten your life and is very likely to kill you.

 

Why does the government continue to castigate smoking, smokers and cigarette companies while at the same time allowing it to continue? Money. Tax revenues are so huge that most western governments could not afford to make smoking illegal even though there is clear evidence in favour of doing so. It's hypocrisy of a much nastier kind and conducted on a much larger scale, but in effect it's the same principle: Product A kills people. Product A = important revenue, therefore let the people die and count the money. As I believe I said in my first post on this thread, it's Tombstone Accounting, and it's not pretty.

 

And the fact that it exists elsewhere does not make it okay for it happen at the TT, casting a long and seemingly unending shadow over what used to be a great sporting event.

 

But if you like the smoking analogy, remember that in the 1930's cigarettes were advertised as having a beneficial effect on chest and lungs. Really. Beneficial. And that at a time when Big Tobacco already knew the product was a killer. But times have changed, and these days the activities of the cigarette companies are reined in by Governments who are acting to save lives (while at the same time hypocritically trying to preserve a vital revenue stream).

 

On the TT course, not so much has changed since the thirties, and Government worse still, IS the motorcycling equivalent of Big Tobacco as well as the regulatory body whose responsibility is to make the organisers take all possible steps to make racing safe. Conflict of opinion? You bet your ass.

 

It's Amity Island all over again. Come on in children, the water's perfectly safe. We can't afford any sharks...

[groudleho]

Over the past 12 months at least 3 local motorcyclists have been killed on Manx Roads at no fault of their own and nothing to do with the racing, should it now be considered that bikes are banned from Manx roads for good or better still educate Manx car drivers who in my opinion are the worst in the UK.

 

When did the IOM become part of the UK?

[Mr. Sausages]

Road signs, walls, hedges etc... how inconvenient they must be to road racers. Who on Earth thought it was a good idea to put road signs and walls next to roads? How stupid of the govt to allow houses etc to be built on the island without a thought for how dangerous they are when hit at 180mph.