Twitch Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 ...Nobody has mentioned that an extended Manx ELECTRIC Railway will require the promenade to rather a lot of tall poles and overhead wiring to enable the bloody things to get to the town centre. I think it's telling that the magnificent Victorian engineers thought it best to cease the elecric railway at Derby Castle and not extend it along the prom.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Does anyone really think this is viable?, whats the cost of installing electric cable and unsightly poles from Summerland to the Sea terminal?, the cost of running more public transport at substantial losses?, the maintenance over the years? As suggested earlier something like this on the prom would be better : Carries 72 people (more than a horse tram), costs less too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Our MHKs will have to make sure that the Glass Roof over Strand St is high enough to allow for these poles as these commuter trams take thousands of shoppers into the street! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robertshaw Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 There has been an over reaction on the part of some on here to the simple and reasonable concept of making a connection at what must be a relatively small cost when the opportunity to do so exists - rather than not to do so. It is a sensible precautionary measure to keep options open - nothing more and nothing less. To suggest that a full business plan, impact study, costing and in depth analysis has to be done on the future option or options it would protect at this stage is,quite honestly, ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Does anyone really think this is viable?, whats the cost of installing electric cable and unsightly poles from Summerland to the Sea terminal?, the cost of running more public transport at substantial losses?, the maintenance over the years? As suggested earlier something like this on the prom would be better : Carries 72 people (more than a horse tram), costs less too. Gets my vote. Seriously, the proposal to extend the MER is nuts. It's the track from Summerland to Ramsey that needs some money thrown at it, oh and some decent trams too...assuming we'll have any money left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Seriously, perhapsthe whole of the Prom regeneration should be put on hold, the 20 mil could be more usefully employed elsewhere in these next few years. Is the Prom state really that much of a problem? Yes, it is bumpy on Queens Prom, slipery when wet and the tramlines are a nuisance but the biggest problems for drivers are the pedxings and the queues at peak times. Could we not put up with these for another 5 or so years until we have the budget sorted and know where the money is to come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hedgehog Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 There has been an over reaction on the part of some on here to the simple and reasonable concept of making a connection at what must be a relatively small cost when the opportunity to do so exists - rather than not to do so. It is a sensible precautionary measure to keep options open - nothing more and nothing less. To suggest that a full business plan, impact study, costing and in depth analysis has to be done on the future option or options it would protect at this stage is,quite honestly, ridiculous. Doing nothing doesn't exactly rule things out in the future does it? Nothing has been done to link the lines for decades yet it is still a possibility. The ridiculous thing is that one of our politicians is suggesting we spend money on something that will probably never be of any use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 There has been an over reaction on the part of some on here to the simple and reasonable concept of making a connection at what must be a relatively small cost when the opportunity to do so exists - rather than not to do so. It is a sensible precautionary measure to keep options open - nothing more and nothing less. To suggest that a full business plan, impact study, costing and in depth analysis has to be done on the future option or options it would protect at this stage is,quite honestly, ridiculous. But if you don't do some sort of investigation you won't know what sort of connection to build and you'll have to take the original one out which will cost even more than doing nothing. Of course all this is just a way of avoiding the questions of whether to reinstate the horse trams at all. Are they really that necessary to the tourist trade? In my experience the vintage transport types come for the railway and electric trams and the horsey types think it's terribly cruel (yes, I know, I know). Lets do a thought experiment. A politician says something and then, rather than defending it to the death, later says "I've a think about that/got further information and I don't think it's such a good idea after all". Don't you think, after all the pet projects we've suffered over the years, the public would welcome such realism? [Edited to close quotes.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinnieK Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 To suggest that a full business plan, impact study, costing and in depth analysis has to be done on the future option or options it would protect at this stage is,quite honestly, ridiculous. Which is probably why no one has suggested anything of the sort. Concerns and criticisms were raised, and fairly general and/or basic ones at that. Expecting one of our MHKs to be able to demonstrate that he's at least bothered to spend a few minutes thinking about these matters before spouting off about how great an idea it is and how it would be foolish not to go through with it shouldn't be too much to ask (and I remind you that initially you were all for the act of linking up the rails itself, not merely 'consideration' of the idea). If it's any consolation, think of it simply as us rejecting the kind of complacency you yourself have been berating Tynwald over for the past year or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_Kelly Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 If government pumped money into the economy now it would be a good idea, IF in the good times they had stepped back a bit, but they didn't, as the private sector was booming they weighed in too and overheated the economy. I know of friends in construction who tell me about having to get to the tarmac plant at 3am in the morning queue or you would not get tarmac that day - crazy overheated situation. If they had held back on big capital spending projects like the hospital and the prison they might of been able to even out the boom and bust, as it happened they paid top dollar for these projects in a boom and now when there is no money willing to be risked in the private sector we will see lots of company's struggling. IMO this is the main problem with having shopkeepers and the like in charge, they cant see the bigger picture and look where we are now, far too big a civil service and rumors of tax hikes, on a tax haven FFS, to sort it out. Has getting your picture and name in the paper for being the Minister in charge of spending multiple millions on a given project been that important to the incumbents that they lost all sense of reality? I could not agree more with what you have just said about the past 10 years. Everyone knows that the prom has to have something done with it - that is a given. To spend £10/20/30 million on it now would be mad. If they wanted to keep the pride of Douglas and to make it shine why are we only doing it now? Why was it not done 5-10 years ago? This may be wrong but I think you need to look into the way government is run to see why it’s being done now at a time we cannot afford it. In my mind, the simple reason is because every few years the government has a big road building project - Windy Corner, Brandish, Governors Hill, Richmond Hill etc, the list goes on. What is the connection you may ask? Well it is very simple; we have to keep having these grand projects because if we did not then we would have a lot of people with nothing to do. There are many people that are employed to design, oversee, run studies, get prices etc. etc., and without these projects we would not need the staff or should I say the number of staff. And hence we start to see the picture unfold. As one project ends they start on their next one. Yes there is a delay between one finishing and the next one starting but that is the design time, where all the people behind the projects are busy organising the next project. It is job creation on a grand scale, and it has to end now until the budget is sorted. I agree that the prom needs to be refreshed, but I am sure that a coat of tarmac will sort out most parts. Yes people will say that while it’s being done we should do everything at the same time to save costs etc. And they do have a point, but we can ill afford to spend this kind of cash at the moment. The problem is how bad is the sub base under the prom? I do not know. But if we could just plane the top and re-lay the tarmac so it is smooth and level and if it would stand 10 years before it needed to be looked at again then so be it. It has stood 70 years with no work on it, and I am sure with the above it would stand for 10 more years. But without the figures and knowing exactly how bad the sub base is, I cannot make that call. And going from previous experience with this type of project by the government I would reckon that none of the MHKs know what it is really like. They will have seen the plans or the ideas of what they want to do and thought “ooooo that looks nice” without even thinking about what it really means, or what they could do, because the people behind these projects need to keep their jobs; they are not going to say well we could get around it by doing half the work at half the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 There has been an over reaction on the part of some on here to the simple and reasonable concept of making a connection at what must be a relatively small cost when the opportunity to do so exists - rather than not to do so. It is a sensible precautionary measure to keep options open - nothing more and nothing less. To suggest that a full business plan, impact study, costing and in depth analysis has to be done on the future option or options it would protect at this stage is,quite honestly, ridiculous. One of your complaints about your fellow MHKs is that they do not fully consider what is presented to them, they do not think in depth about the full consequenses of what they pass through Tynwald 'on the nod'. Will you at least now, hold your hand up and say, 'Guilty'. None of us here on MF have had in depth analysis of your proposed scheme, we have just used common sense to find the holes in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 ...Nobody has mentioned that an extended Manx ELECTRIC Railway will require the promenade to rather a lot of tall poles and overhead wiring to enable the bloody things to get to the town centre. I think it's telling that the magnificent Victorian engineers thought it best to cease the elecric railway at Derby Castle and not extend it along the prom.... If you have a careful look around the town you can see that there was an electric tram running up Broadway and if I remember it came along Prospect Terrace and down Victoria Street to the Sea Terminal. So, yes the magnificent Victorian engineers certainly did know what they were doing. They also put an electric tram along Blackpool promenade which is still there today. As for the rinky dink Disney toy railway (see picture) that one or two are suggesting, are you serious ? Is this what you really want ? I'm surprised at some of the reaction to Chris's proposal, for it was that same hard headed realism and 'common sense' that dismantled and vandalised the Island's Victorian heritage in the 1960s / 70s. One of the things our politicians and decision makers lacked then, and now, was vision and a sense of where we're going, and I'm not at all surprised that we're not hearing anything from the new prospective crop either. Douglas used to be a beautiful town and if someone can come up with workable and affordable proposals to help get it off its knees then I for one am going to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Git Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 ...Nobody has mentioned that an extended Manx ELECTRIC Railway will require the promenade to rather a lot of tall poles and overhead wiring to enable the bloody things to get to the town centre. I think someone did mention that they don't necessarily have to run Victorian trams along it. Perhaps a nice new diesel electric commuter train would do the job nicely at peak times? Anyone know if the MER and horse tram tracks are the same gauge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 There has been an over reaction on the part of some on here to the simple and reasonable concept of making a connection at what must be a relatively small cost when the opportunity to do so exists - rather than not to do so. It is a sensible precautionary measure to keep options open - nothing more and nothing less. To suggest that a full business plan, impact study, costing and in depth analysis has to be done on the future option or options it would protect at this stage is,quite honestly, ridiculous. Doing nothing doesn't exactly rule things out in the future does it? Nothing has been done to link the lines for decades yet it is still a possibility. The ridiculous thing is that one of our politicians is suggesting we spend money on something that will probably never be of any use. Totally agree. Why waste time and money linking up when the chances of the MER or running trams across the prom are virtually nil and if, and it is a huge if, the such a proposal was ever given the go ahead it would be no more difficult to lay and cost roughly the same in real terms to relay then. I would agree with Robertshaw if there was a reasonable chance of this happening in the next five or ten years and the cost of doing the work then as compared to now would be vastly different. As neither is true it is potentially a waste of public money, even if was only £100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I think someone did mention that they don't necessarily have to run Victorian trams along it. Perhaps a nice new diesel electric commuter train would do the job nicely at peak times? Anyone know if the MER and horse tram tracks are the same gauge? They are. As for a diesel train or tram running along the MER etc, it is basically a pie in the sky idea as the infra structure is not of the required standard to enable a tram or train to run at the required speed to make it viable. The Steam railway is different. The infrastructure was put in place when the line was relaid as part of the IRIS project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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