manxman1980 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 The other point I will add is that under UK law Gaza and the West Bank are viewed as occupied territory. That places a different responsibility on the occupying nation, in this case Israel. Just to reiterate I do not support Hamas. I do not object to Israel defending its citizens. I object to mass killings of innocent civilians on both sides. I have the same opposition to Russia's actions in Ukraine. Humanity is as divided now as it has ever been. Extremism seems to be everywhere at the moment. Sadly as climate change starts to bite we are going to see much more war and fighting over land and resources. In an ideal world people would realise that it is only through cooperation that Humanity has any hope of survival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 10 hours ago, P.K. said: @HeliX Totally unimpressed. You know as well as I do that Palestinians are weaned on a hatred of Israel and all things Israeli. That's how Hezbollah are such a potent force in Lebanon. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/12/13/its-not-shocking-to-see-israeli-children-celebrate-the-gaza-genocide It's fine when Israel does it though, obviously. Besides, bad actors in Palestine would have a harder job convincing people to hate Israel if they couldn't just point at piles of Palestinian bodies and say "told you". Quote Incidentally how do you stand on the indiscriminate rockets fired into Israel by the Palestinians for the last 20 years or so. Presumably you support them...? I am against anything targeting civilians (or failing to not target civilians). It's hardly a surprising outcome given the conditions imposed on Gaza by Israel though. 1 hour ago, P.K. said: My solution is simple. All the killing would instantly stop if Hamas and Islamic Jihad surrendered and gave up their Israeli hostages. But they don't seem to want to do that. It's almost as if they don't care that their actions have brought death and destruction across all of Gaza. There's no IDF killing of civilians in the West Bank then? No settlers killing civilians? Quote And if they don't care about their fellow Palestinians then you have to wonder why should anyone else...? Once again, "If terrorists don't care about human lives why should I?" is not the incredible moralistic zinger you think it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 1 minute ago, P.K. said: Ought to be careful flinging that around in your glass house. Didn't really expect you to address any of the points though, because you can't and never do. Edited March 26 by HeliX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 The IDF have been tasked and like good little soldiers everywhere they will carry out their orders to the best of their abilities. Fighting an insurgency by it's very nature will always mean civilian casualties. Obviously the Palestinians in Hamas simply don't care about that. They take their orders from Tehran despite the fact Iranians are not Arabs. Don't try to put words in my mouth again. At no time have I ever said I don't care about human lives. Although I must admit since the early seventies I have come to want all murderous terrorist vermin stamped out completely in whatever guise they come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 19 minutes ago, P.K. said: Although I must admit since the early seventies I have come to want all murderous terrorist vermin stamped out completely in whatever guise they come... Which is understandable but you keep verging on saying that it is acceptable to wipe out an entire population in the hope of destroying a terrorist organisation. We know that Hamas is not solely based in Gaza and that their leaders are safely ensconced elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Which is understandable but you keep verging on saying that it is acceptable to wipe out an entire population in the hope of destroying a terrorist organisation. Just an observation. Phil Gawne was a political arsonist wasn't he? By definition, is that not a terrorist today? Well, he is a ham-has-been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 1 minute ago, manxman1980 said: Which is understandable but you keep verging on saying that it is acceptable to wipe out an entire population in the hope of destroying a terrorist organisation. We know that Hamas is not solely based in Gaza and that their leaders are safely ensconced elsewhere. I would never say it's acceptable to wipe out an entire population simply because I find the idea of genocide abhorrent. Put it in perspective. Hamas report at least 30,000 civilians dead. The IDF claim at least 9,000 Palestinian Resistance Fighters killed by them. So if there are 2.1m refugees "living" in Gaza then 1% have been killed in this conflict. That's a dreadful figure in itself but it's certainly no genocide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 39 minutes ago, P.K. said: Put it in perspective. Hamas report at least 30,000 civilians dead. The hamas-controlled health ministry, which release these figures, have never differentiated between civi's and fighters. 39 minutes ago, P.K. said: The IDF claim at least 9,000 Palestinian Resistance Fighters killed by them. So if there are 2.1m refugees "living" in Gaza then 1% have been killed in this conflict. That's a dreadful figure in itself but it's certainly no genocide. A ceasefire is not peace and as Benny Gantz postulated, there's no point in only extinguishing 3/4 of a fire. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 48 minutes ago, P.K. said: I would never say it's acceptable to wipe out an entire population simply because I find the idea of genocide abhorrent. And yet Israel's actions have been called a probable genocide by an international court. 48 minutes ago, P.K. said: Put it in perspective. Hamas report at least 30,000 civilians dead. The IDF claim at least 9,000 Palestinian Resistance Fighters killed by them. So if there are 2.1m refugees "living" in Gaza then 1% have been killed in this conflict. That's a dreadful figure in itself but it's certainly no genocide. What about the deaths in Gaza not directly linked to the fighting? Don’t forget the Israeli Government deliberately cut off water supplies to the enclave. There has now been a famine declared in Gaza because those 2.1 million people no longer have access to a reliable source of food. I accept in both cases that Hamas have hindered attempts to help but the Israeli Government has also directly caused these conditions. Both sides need to get around the table and talk about a resolution otherwise there will be a genocide and potentially an escalation of fighting in the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 1 minute ago, manxman1980 said: And yet Israel's actions have been called a probable genocide by an international court. What about the deaths in Gaza not directly linked to the fighting? Don’t forget the Israeli Government deliberately cut off water supplies to the enclave. There has now been a famine declared in Gaza because those 2.1 million people no longer have access to a reliable source of food. I accept in both cases that Hamas have hindered attempts to help but the Israeli Government has also directly caused these conditions. Don't bite the hand that feeds you... Proof, if proof were ever needed, that Gaza in it's present form is untenable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 38 minutes ago, P.K. said: Don't bite the hand that feeds you... Proof, if proof were ever needed, that Gaza in it's present form is untenable... Well, of course it is untenable now. The Israeli Government have flattened most of it. Let's rewind though before the horrific events in October. What were either side doing to reduce tensions and find a long term solution to Gaza and the West Bank? The world and the Leaders in the region must find a solution that allows Israelis and Palestinians to live peacefully together. Enclaves and exclusions are not going to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 2 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Well, of course it is untenable now. The Israeli Government have flattened most of it. Let's rewind though before the horrific events in October. What were either side doing to reduce tensions and find a long term solution to Gaza and the West Bank? The world and the Leaders in the region must find a solution that allows Israelis and Palestinians to live peacefully together. Enclaves and exclusions are not going to work. Well, before their assault Hamas were planning it and their longterm aim of the destruction of Israel and the Israelis were looking at beefing up their "Iron Dome" air defence system against all the rockets fired at Israel every night by the Palestinians all knowing that it could probably be overwhelmed. Which it was. Well, you got the "enclaves and exclusions not working" bit right so you concur that Gaza is a road to nowhere and needs to be dealt with going forward. Progress of a sort I suppose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 29 minutes ago, P.K. said: Well, before their assault Hamas were planning it and their longterm aim of the destruction of Israel and the Israelis were looking at beefing up their "Iron Dome" air defence system against all the rockets fired at Israel every night by the Palestinians all knowing that it could probably be overwhelmed. Which it was. Well, you got the "enclaves and exclusions not working" bit right so you concur that Gaza is a road to nowhere and needs to be dealt with going forward. Progress of a sort I suppose... I agree that the situation was always going to come to a head if nothing was done to stop it. It may just be because of the tone that comes across online but "needs to be dealt with" reads rather sinister. I continue to believe that there must be a better solution to the long term problems caused by the creation of modern day Israel. The problem now is that Israel has a far right leader and Gaza was controlled by the extremist group Hamas and the two were never going to come together and solve the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anyone Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 13 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said: Just an observation. Phil Gawne was a political arsonist wasn't he? By definition, is that not a terrorist today? Well, he is a ham-has-been. I think he was only the wheel man. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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