manxman1980 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 FFS... https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/apr/19/middle-east-crisis-live-updates-iran-israel-today-explosions-isfahan Looks like the hothead won out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 What were you expecting to happen..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 4 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Several of us have said repeatedly that the Israeli Governments actions in Gaza overstepped a reasonable response and from that point on were only ever going to create new Hamas supporters. @manxman1980 Define what would be a "reasonable" response...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 2 hours ago, quilp said: What were you expecting to happen..? A little but of calm considering Iran's attack harmed/damaged nothing. This is just escalation and is going to prompt Iran to retaliate further. 11 minutes ago, P.K. said: @manxman1980 Define what would be a "reasonable" response...? I would suggest a more measured campaign that would not have been described as possible genocide by the ICJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 27 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: A little but of calm considering Iran's attack harmed/damaged nothing. This is just escalation and is going to prompt Iran to retaliate further. I would suggest a more measured campaign that would not have been described as possible genocide by the ICJ. @manxman1980 Define what would be a "more measured campaign" please ie what tactics should they have used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 44 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: 57 minutes ago, P.K. said: @manxman1980 Define what would be a "reasonable" response...? I would suggest a more measured campaign that would not have been described as possible genocide by the ICJ. Be very careful here. This isn't what the ICJ has said. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Just to clarify the only thing which has been found plausible are the right of South Africa to bring a case. https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/lawyers-letter-based-on-error The words “plausible risk” appear nowhere in the court’s order. They are a misrepresentation of what the court concluded in paragraph 54 of its judgment: In the court’s view, the facts and circumstances mentioned above are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Further to this, Manxman1980 would you have described the assault on Berlin in 1945 as "measured"? It was a city assault with, in the order of, 44 thousand zealous defenders embedded in a city where 100,000 civilians died in the fighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 9 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Further to this, Manxman1980 would you have described the assault on Berlin in 1945 as "measured"? It was a city assault with, in the order of, 44 thousand zealous defenders embedded in a city where 100,000 civilians died in the fighting. Not sure the circumstances can be compared. One was a world war causing untold death and destruction across many countries, the other is an occupying force exacting what amounts to revenge more than any strategic victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 2 hours ago, P.K. said: @manxman1980 Define what would be a "reasonable" response...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Every time someone complains about the way the IDF are carrying out their orders I simply ask for their alternative strategy...? Modern warfare is all about winning with the least casualties to your own side*. So ideally you want to manoeuvre your enemy into such a place where they can essentially be massacred from a position of complete safety. Anything less simply means unnecessary losses to your own side. Which are to be avoided as much as is possible. As of today in the "Swords of Iron" operation the IDF have had 260 KIA and 3,267 WIA some 512 of which are VSW. There are also 1,139 Israeli civilians killed on 7th October to add to the list. Of course all these numbers would be zero but for the Hamas assault. That according to a recent poll 71% of Palestinians supported. Bearing in mind what took place on that day it's quite disgusting really... The only way to destroy Hamas and their rocket launchers is boots on the ground which is a very dangerous way of doing things. However they had the good sense not to just rush in to what would no doubt be prepped killing grounds and instead planned it through. The infantry advance with armoured support and if they get held up they just call in indirect fire both artillery and fast air. Like the US protecting their forces as far as possible with overwhelming firepower. But they still have to take Rafah which will be the toughest nut to crack with the likelyhood of lots of casualties on both sides. I guess we'll find out... *Unless you are a dictatorship like Russia where there is no accountability for enormous losses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 2 hours ago, P.K. said: @manxman1980 Define what would be a "more measured campaign" please ie what tactics should they have used? If the IDF are as good as you and others suggest then go door to door in pursuit of Hamas. It is a small area with all routes of escape closed. Don't just destroy everything and everyone. I believe you may be ex-military. As such did you not understand that you could be sent into harms way amd expected to do an extremely difficult job that could result in you losing your life? There is unfortunately no ideal solution but the preservation of innocent civilian life should be high on the list of considerations. I understand that you will disagree with me. @Chinahand I was being careful which is why I did not say that it was Genocide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 4 hours ago, manxman1980 said: If the IDF are as good as you and others suggest then go door to door in pursuit of Hamas. I think knocking on doors and asking the inhabitants if they have any Palestinian Resistance Fighters or Islamic Jihadis round for afternoon tea is a very risky strategy that would never work out in somewhere like Rafah. The usual tactical Advance To Contact (ATC) and when you draw fire calling it in for indirect artillery or fast air support is the way to go. Especially if It's Intelligence driven. These days they claim that if the co-ords are accurate they can put a shell or a bomb in a dustbin. Although why you would want to destroy someone's rubbish was never explained... By now they should be very good at it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 18 minutes ago, P.K. said: These days they claim that if the co-ords are accurate they can put a shell or a bomb in a dustbin. Although why you would want to destroy someone's rubbish was never explained... By now they should be very good at it as well. Why are they hitting so many children then? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 43 minutes ago, P.K. said: I think knocking on doors and asking the inhabitants if they have any Palestinian Resistance Fighters or Islamic Jihadis round for afternoon tea is a very risky strategy that would never work out in somewhere like Rafah. Absolutely its risky but the approach they have taken has led to more people in Gaza supporting Hamas and strengthened the will of those who were already supporters. Quilp was dismissive before but Hamas will be seen by some as freedom fighters. Even amongst those who condemn Hamas and their terrorist actions it has created a surge of support for Palestinians and a distrust of the Israeli Government. Sadly this whole conflict has also escalated anti-semetism with more and more stereotypical tropes appearing online and in particular on social media. The Israeli Government needs to listen to tge Israeli people, and the families of those taken as hostages. They also need to listen to their allies before the whole conflict goes to far. Drawing Iran into an open conflict is a bad idea. It has strengthened its hold on the area and also built up links with China and Russia. The USA, particularly if Trump is elected, is not going to stop a wider conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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