Shake me up Judy Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Israeli settlements will be the best thing for Gaza. The only thing in fact. The Arabs have pissed away their future with the gun and the rocket and look where it's got them. Palestinians will be made welcome and will have homes, schools and hospitals. More than Hamas ever gave them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 30 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said: Palestinians will be made welcome and will have homes, schools and hospitals. I would love to be able to believe this but past and current treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli regime doesn't give that impression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 32 minutes ago, HeliX said: Who are you arguing with? Nobody thinks Gaza is in a good sustainable state, but some of us dont think that can be used to handwave away massive amounts of human suffering. You reap what you sow... How very appropriate for the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 minute ago, P.K. said: You reap what you sow... How very appropriate for the region. What exactly did all the dead children sow? There but for the grace of God... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 8 minutes ago, HeliX said: What exactly did all the dead children sow? Every single palestinian terrorist authority through the decades has placed gaza's and the West Bank's citizens in harms way. The same cowardice as employed by ISIS/al-qaeda in Iraq and various militias in Libya. A considerable number of the citizens of gaza support the actions of hamas and hezbollah and therefore remain in place by choice, providing support where they can. You could ask what sort of parent allows their children to be exposed to this level of risk and refuse evacuation to safety. Mind you, that Egypt and Jordan initially refused to open their borders to refugees didn't help with their plight. Why was that? You should also give thought to why hamas et al don't surrender this unwinnable war. Or are they valiant and heroic 'freedom fighters' fighting honourably to the last bullet, in your opinion? Those terrorists are also responsible for a great deal of the civilian casualties not only by the use of human-shields but also by denying proper distribution of food, water and essential medical supplies, from bandages to life-saving drugs. When Israel inadvertently kills women and children it's a tragedy, for the terrorists it's part of their strategy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 3 minutes ago, quilp said: Every single palestinian terrorist authority through the decades has placed gaza's and the West Bank's citizens in harms way. The same cowardice as employed by ISIS/al-qaeda in Iraq and various militias in Libya. A considerable number of the citizens of gaza support the actions of hamas and hezbollah and therefore remain in place by choice, providing support where they can. You could ask what sort of parent allows their children to be exposed to this level of risk and refuse evacuation to safety. Mind you, that Egypt and Jordan initially refused to open their borders to refugees didn't help with their plight. Why was that? You should also give thought to why hamas et al don't surrender this unwinnable war. Or are they valiant and heroic 'freedom fighters' fighting honourably to the last bullet, in your opinion? Those terrorists are also responsible for a great deal of the civilian casualties not only by the use of human-shields but also by denying proper distribution of food, water and essential medical supplies, from bandages to life-saving drugs. When Israel inadvertently kills women and children it's a tragedy, for the terrorists it's part of their strategy. I don't disagree with any of this, except perhaps the last line. I don't think Israel does view civilian casualties as a tragedy. I don't think Hamas are valiant freedom fighters, but I do think their existence was utterly predictable if not inevitable given the treatment of the Palestinian people by the Israeli regime and the willful ignorance of the problem from the international community. Denied the right to seek political solutions, denied the right to peacefully protest, inevitably you end up with violent protest - as with every time those conditions have ever been set. The other thing I would note though is that none of this absolves Israel of its duty to not perform obscene acts of inhumanity such as cutting off water to over a million children. There's a good reason collective punishment is illegal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 On 4/17/2024 at 5:09 PM, P.K. said: That's rich coming from you. Even after being told a Grad (translation "hail") rocket had a 20kg warhead you still claimed "They are fireworks. Hence the near zero damage from them in several decades." which frankly is in complete denial. To counter the increasing number of rockets Israel developed the "Iron Dome" system. They didn't have to as they already had effective counter-battery radars. They track the trajectory of a missile which immediately gives away the launch site. You can have a Ground-to-Ground targeted missile in the air before the enemy rocket even hits the ground. They did not deploy them because drone footage showed the launchers were all deliberately placed in heavily populated built-up areas to act as a counter-strike shield. But if they hadn't deployed Iron Dome there would be more Israeli casualties and even more Palestinian casualties from counter-strikes. Unfortunately not degrading the Hamas systems meant they could amass enough to overwhelm Iron Dome for the October assault. However you can be sure that their whereabouts were marked and hopefully destroyed by the ground offensive... 10kg of C4, out of interest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 6 hours ago, HeliX said: I don't disagree with any of this, except perhaps the last line. I don't think Israel does view civilian casualties as a tragedy. I don't think Hamas are valiant freedom fighters, but I do think their existence was utterly predictable if not inevitable given the treatment of the Palestinian people by the Israeli regime and the willful ignorance of the problem from the international community. Denied the right to seek political solutions, denied the right to peacefully protest, inevitably you end up with violent protest - as with every time those conditions have ever been set. The other thing I would note though is that none of this absolves Israel of its duty to not perform obscene acts of inhumanity such as cutting off water to over a million children. There's a good reason collective punishment is illegal. The Palestinians voted for Hamas and their ideology: "HAMAS emerged in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada, as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestinian branch. The group is committed to armed resistance against Israel and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in Israel's place." So for once you're right. The death and destruction in Gaza was bound to follow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 11 minutes ago, P.K. said: The Palestinians voted for Hamas and their ideology: "HAMAS emerged in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada, as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestinian branch. The group is committed to armed resistance against Israel and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in Israel's place." So for once you're right. The death and destruction in Gaza was bound to follow... Forgotten that hardly any of the people in Gaza who are alive now voted in the last election? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 29 minutes ago, HeliX said: Forgotten that hardly any of the people in Gaza who are alive now voted in the last election? More facile nonsense. The election was in 2006 ffs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 6 minutes ago, P.K. said: More facile nonsense. The election was in 2006 ffs! Yes and half the population is under 18. So a lot of them weren't even born, and most of those that were were not old enough to vote. It's not "facile" just because you can't do maths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 45 minutes ago, P.K. said: More facile nonsense. The election was in 2006 ffs! Anyone under 36 now was unable to vote in 2006, they were either under 18 or unborn. Thats about 75% of the current Gaza population. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 There was a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research recently. All the various media outlets have their own take on the results. However they all seem to agree on this: "According to the poll, only seven percent of Gazans blamed Hamas for their suffering. Seventy-one percent of all Palestinians supported Hamas’s decision to attack Israel on October 7 — up 14 points among Gazans and down 11 points among West Bank Palestinians compared to three months ago. Fifty-nine percent of all Palestinians thought Hamas should rule Gaza, and 70 percent were satisfied with the role Hamas has played during the war." https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-increasingly-happy-with-october-7-even-as-hamas-support-droops-poll/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/over-70-percent-of-palestinians-support-hamass-october-7-terror-attack-poll/ etc... So if the IDF are not allowed to finish the mission there will be a cadre of Hamas left to re-grow the organisation with Iranian arms and money. Hamas and Gaza will put that down as a win. Hamas recruitment will swell the ranks. Israel will await the next assault. Rinse and repeat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 1 hour ago, P.K. said: There was a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research recently. All the various media outlets have their own take on the results. However they all seem to agree on this: "According to the poll, only seven percent of Gazans blamed Hamas for their suffering. Seventy-one percent of all Palestinians supported Hamas’s decision to attack Israel on October 7 — up 14 points among Gazans and down 11 points among West Bank Palestinians compared to three months ago. Fifty-nine percent of all Palestinians thought Hamas should rule Gaza, and 70 percent were satisfied with the role Hamas has played during the war." Several of us have said repeatedly that the Israeli Governments actions in Gaza overstepped a reasonable response and from that point on were only ever going to create new Hamas supporters. What would be interesting is a poll of the same people about their views pre 7 October. Again to reiterate my stance I agree that Israel had a right to defend itself. I disagree with the methods the Israeli Government has used and the resulting loss of life in Gaza. I also do not support Hamas and condemn their actions on the 7 October. There have been too many innocent people killed on both sides already and, as I have said before, I believe the remaining hostages are all sadly dead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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