Work Permit Not Working

[Lagman]

 

Pure Manx passport holders have certainly been refused work rights in France.

 

There is no such thing as a Manx Passport...They are all British Islands passports..I have one and I am not Manx save for a Gt Gt Grandmother born in Castletown in 1815 and she "emigrated" to Liverpool although she did come back to retire in Ramsey!

 

The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands agreed to this "no right of Establishment" situation and "that stamp" when Protocol 3 was negotiated. ...However, I believe it simply means that there is no automatic right of Establishment. You can apply just as people coming to the Island can apply for Work Permits...Just no automatic entitlement. I know Manx people who have been allowed to work, buy houses, run businesses and be directors in France...But they had to apply for Establishment!

 

The missing factor would so far as I am aware appear to be that people from UK and EU generally can live in the Island but not necessarily work if they have the right of abode in the UK...

 

It is this ever dwindling number of people with British Islands passports bearing the "no right of Establishment" stamp who appear not to have their EU counterparts?...Seems like it!

 

But the number of people (with what is it, self and "x" grandparent (s) born, registered, naturalised or adopted in the Island? Whatever it is!) who have "that stamp" is shrinking so before long it will not even be an issue..Once it was 14,700 people with "that stamp" but it is less than half that now I believe, anyone know? I heard 5,000?

 

The British Islands IOM and CI as they came to be known did not want to be part of the single market for the free movement of people, capital and services...Hence "that stamp" Your choice! You did it! .

 

The return match was that the Island could keep work permits.

 

This was the payoff. How you amend your own work permit legislation and/or allow people from afar to avail themselves of your own NHS is down to you and nothing to do with directives from "Europe" as such although you did agree to Protocol 3 stipulations regarding "discrimination" ie you cannot pick and choose for and or against an EU member state nationals. Look it up I am just going from memory!

 

Way back in the early 1990s the UK person responsible in Westminster for the Isle of Man said that as the years roll by the UK would find the Island's position as near as dammit an offshore county with privileges to be increasingly indefensible..

 

The work permit system was cited as a major fact at that time...

 

Well, if the ever dwindling number of people with that "No right of Establishment" stamp in their passports continues to fall then the original purpose of that aspect of Protocol 3 begins to fail and thus the contentious work permit ussue can be steadily watered down such that eventually it is phased out altogether ...at least in terms of effectiveness and relevance...Maybe this process of evolution is what you are now witnessing?

 

Maybe, and I`m certainly not blaming the EU or UK for this.

 

How about from outside of the EU though?

[oldmanxfella]

The can now apply for work permits by E-mail part sounds ominous - are they even going to bother checking for any criminal convictions?

 

Or can we expect things like this to happen -

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173553/Six-members-Asian-sex-gang-facing-jail-convicted-abusing-girl-groomed-shopped-Woolworths-aged-12.html

 

- seems to be happening in every town and city in England, why would we be immune.

 

- And yes it` the Mail - sorry I had to, I`ve just heard the BBC version of events - 6 men arrested for sex abuse - no pics, no mention of anything else.

 

-

I get where your coming from and agree with a lot of it. But the fact is that the permit system is a joke anyway so these relaxations/changes will make no difference as the system doesn't work anyway. Most of the people on the permit committee aren't even bloody Manx which is hilarious when you consider it. I would much rather we competed head to head with people coming in and not have some protected work status. In fact I actually think a work permit system is meaningless. What we should go for is some sort of residency permit or restricted rights to live here like the Channel Islands as that would stop any asshole we don't like coming here - whether they need a job or not. It would also protect Manx people from being priced out of the housing market by people coming in.

[ballaughbiker]

 

 

Pure Manx passport holders have certainly been refused work rights in France.

No doubt true and others have had no problem there. Depends how sharp the foncs are and what day it is. 4pm Friday afternoon is the best time to turn up but any afternoon will usually do....

 

 

 

 

And have certainly been told they need to go home for operations etc. how come people coming here from the EU and beyond get free medical cover?

That's our fault not theirs. Only in the UK and IOM can you just turn up, say you live here and access the NHS straight away. No other European country does that to my knowledge and if you move to France whether proper Manx or not you will have to be resident and paying taxes there for 5 years before you can get the Carte Vitale to access their (excellent) heathcare. In the meantime you have to be comprehensively medically insured which does not mean holiday insurance.

 

 

 

 

There is no such thing as a Manx Passport

Well there is but isn't the bit that really matters is under the entry 'nationality' on the picture page at the back? If it says British Citizen then I'd say you have no worries in the EU no matter what it says on the front.

[Barrie Stevens]

The almost EU-free answer would be to bring alive that residency control/licensing legislation instigated by Peter Karran MHK years ago now.

 

It is A OK as under the Single Market the Island opted out of that in respect of the free movement of people (Something I think the UK as a full EU member will get snared by when trying to restrict migrants)....

 

..So you could by-pass all the other hang ups and trips and traps and just license people to occupy accommodation. The only problem is that aspect of Protcol 3 relating to a requirement to treat all the same when exercising measures allowed due to the Island not being in the Single Market...

 

Thus if you require non-Manx, UK folk and all EU persons and those having right of abode in the UK to have a licence for accommodation then the same must apply to established locals also..This is how I recall it anyway!

 

Thus your native born Manx &/or established comeovers will need to be licensed if they move to new accommodation once the law is invoked. Manxies coming back from overseas will need a licence in their own country. Your sons and daughters Island born will need to be licensed when they fly the nest.

 

Also, if I recall correctly, the original plan called for a public register of those licensed to occupy accommodation??? Might be bellows to mend amongst the tax dodgers if their devious plans are in some way exposed!

 

On the other hand, the legislative power is there and has Royal Assent so you have the remedy...strictly kosher too the whole deal!

[Lagman]

 

The can now apply for work permits by E-mail part sounds ominous - are they even going to bother checking for any criminal convictions?

 

Or can we expect things like this to happen -

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173553/Six-members-Asian-sex-gang-facing-jail-convicted-abusing-girl-groomed-shopped-Woolworths-aged-12.html

 

- seems to be happening in every town and city in England, why would we be immune.

 

- And yes it` the Mail - sorry I had to, I`ve just heard the BBC version of events - 6 men arrested for sex abuse - no pics, no mention of anything else.

 

-

I get where your coming from and agree with a lot of it. But the fact is that the permit system is a joke anyway so these relaxations/changes will make no difference as the system doesn't work anyway. Most of the people on the permit committee aren't even bloody Manx which is hilarious when you consider it. I would much rather we competed head to head with people coming in and not have some protected work status. In fact I actually think a work permit system is meaningless. What we should go for is some sort of residency permit or restricted rights to live here like the Channel Islands as that would stop any asshole we don't like coming here - whether they need a job or not. It would also protect Manx people from being priced out of the housing market by people coming in.

 

Yes i have thought that about the committee, surely it`s still better to have stronger power of refusal than weaker though?

So relax the work permits and strike the residency act? - and pick and choose from skills etc that we need, balanced with infrastructure etc. - that would be interesting.not bad thinking,but would they do it?

[Lagman]

The almost EU-free answer would be to bring alive that residency control/licensing legislation instigated by Peter Karran MHK years ago now.

 

It is A OK as under the Single Market the Island opted out of that in respect of the free movement of people (Something I think the UK as a full EU member will get snared by when trying to restrict migrants)....

 

..So you could by-pass all the other hang ups and trips and traps and just license people to occupy accommodation. The only problem is that aspect of Protcol 3 relating to a requirement to treat all the same when exercising measures allowed due to the Island not being in the Single Market...

 

Thus if you require non-Manx, UK folk and all EU persons and those having right of abode in the UK to have a licence for accommodation then the same must apply to established locals also..This is how I recall it anyway!

 

Thus your native born Manx &/or established comeovers will need to be licensed if they move to new accommodation once the law is invoked. Manxies coming back from overseas will need a licence in their own country. Your sons and daughters Island born will need to be licensed when they fly the nest.

 

Also, if I recall correctly, the original plan called for a public register of those licensed to occupy accommodation??? Might be bellows to mend amongst the tax dodgers if their devious plans are in some way exposed!

 

On the other hand, the legislative power is there and has Royal Assent so you have the remedy...strictly kosher too the whole deal!

Interesting, I didn`t know that was Karran`s doing, are you sure about that?

[oldmanxfella]

 

 

The can now apply for work permits by E-mail part sounds ominous - are they even going to bother checking for any criminal convictions?

 

Or can we expect things like this to happen -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173553/Six-members-Asian-sex-gang-facing-jail-convicted-abusing-girl-groomed-shopped-Woolworths-aged-12.html

 

- seems to be happening in every town and city in England, why would we be immune.

 

- And yes it` the Mail - sorry I had to, I`ve just heard the BBC version of events - 6 men arrested for sex abuse - no pics, no mention of anything else.

 

-

 

I get where your coming from and agree with a lot of it. But the fact is that the permit system is a joke anyway so these relaxations/changes will make no difference as the system doesn't work anyway. Most of the people on the permit committee aren't even bloody Manx which is hilarious when you consider it. I would much rather we competed head to head with people coming in and not have some protected work status. In fact I actually think a work permit system is meaningless. What we should go for is some sort of residency permit or restricted rights to live here like the Channel Islands as that would stop any asshole we don't like coming here - whether they need a job or not. It would also protect Manx people from being priced out of the housing market by people coming in.

Yes i have thought that about the committee, surely it`s still better to have stronger power of refusal than weaker though?

So relax the work permits and strike the residency act? - and pick and choose from skills etc that we need, balanced with infrastructure etc. - that would be interesting.not bad thinking,but would they do it?

That makes sense but we have a few greedy property developers to feed who would never allow residency permits to come in. We don't run the economy for the Manx people unfortunately. Residency permits would be a great idea. Jersey and Guernsey can get away with them and as Barrie says PK did get involved with this a few years back. It would transform the housing market over night ........ Which is why it will never happen. The work permit legislation, as is, is a joke though so any diluting will have no effect.

[Lxxx]

 

 

How about a sane balance?, where people coming in are being checked for previous convictions and making sure there are vacancies in the job market for them and houses before they come and if they do commit a crime over here are deported automatically after prison and banished forever.

 

I don't see that saving your people, although it's probably a better indication of your real gripe.

 

Crime? - partly is a worry.

In every developed nation when the economy turns down crime increases. Unfortunately in this instance the biggest crime being perpetrated is by the cosy establishment against the future generations of the rock. It won't affect this generation if the ones able to spot it emigrate in time.

[woolley]

The can now apply for work permits by E-mail part sounds ominous - are they even going to bother checking for any criminal convictions?

 

Or can we expect things like this to happen -

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173553/Six-members-Asian-sex-gang-facing-jail-convicted-abusing-girl-groomed-shopped-Woolworths-aged-12.html

 

- seems to be happening in every town and city in England, why would we be immune.

 

- And yes it` the Mail - sorry I had to, I`ve just heard the BBC version of events - 6 men arrested for sex abuse - no pics, no mention of anything else.

 

-

That's the BBC doing their usual turn for "community cohesion". Always the same.

[the stinking enigma]

Or alternatively, the mail doing their masters turn for community discord

[Lagman]

 

The can now apply for work permits by E-mail part sounds ominous - are they even going to bother checking for any criminal convictions?

 

Or can we expect things like this to happen -

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173553/Six-members-Asian-sex-gang-facing-jail-convicted-abusing-girl-groomed-shopped-Woolworths-aged-12.html

 

- seems to be happening in every town and city in England, why would we be immune.

 

- And yes it` the Mail - sorry I had to, I`ve just heard the BBC version of events - 6 men arrested for sex abuse - no pics, no mention of anything else.

 

-

That's the BBC doing their usual turn for "community cohesion". Always the same.

 

I really did think I was going to get some shit for this and I linked it to see the reaction, but that is what they do over here aswell, as long as you have lived here a couple of weeks they get called local men.

[Lagman]

Or alternatively, the mail doing their masters turn for community discord

Hmmn, even the mail only went as far as calling them asian men though and theirs was the more accurate report of what happened.

[Barrie Stevens]

Hi Lagman! Yes, I am being lazy and not bothering to look it up. But I was there! I was that soldier!

 

And it was dear old Peter Karran (any maybe AN OTHER)who pushed it through as in those days there was a flood of migrants due in the main to a booming economy and not enough housing.

 

The idea was to make it easier for the locals...However, the cynic in me felt even back then that they were allowing Peter Karran to make the noise and passed the Bill into law as a distraction ie they were never going to do it ie force people to get a license to occuppy accommodation and had no intention of reigning in the finance sector, Dandara and all the rest of it. Just let rip! They were not going to restrict business in any way but it was well hailed at the time.

 

The situation last I looked was that the legislation was promulgated at Tynwald Fair but was not likewise formally promulgated or whatever they do in Tynwald/Keys so it remains on the shelf....dormant and unused legislation!

 

Anyway, this is how I recall it!

 

By the way, anyone recall about 1990/1 was it when the Island had such an embarrassment of VAT riches that it did something like I don't know, pay your leccy meter standing charge or gas bill or something! It also adjusted income tax and that year for a brief period my wages went up £14 a week...I think the VAT went up and the Island did not want to follow and so gave the extra wonga away! Summat like that!

 

OK, off topic but as they say "Nothing lasts for ever!"

[Lagman]

Hi Lagman! Yes, I am being lazy and not bothering to look it up. But I was there! I was that soldier!

 

And it was dear old Peter Karran (any maybe AN OTHER)who pushed it through as in those days there was a flood of migrants due in the main to a booming economy and not enough housing.

 

The idea was to make it easier for the locals...However, the cynic in me felt even back then that they were allowing Peter Karran to make the noise and passed the Bill into law as a distraction ie they were never going to do it ie force people to get a license to occuppy accommodation and had no intention of reigning in the finance sector, Dandara and all the rest of it. Just let rip! They were not going to restrict business in any way but it was well hailed at the time.

 

The situation last I looked was that the legislation was promulgated at Tynwald Fair but was not likewise formally promulgated or whatever they do in Tynwald/Keys so it remains on the shelf....dormant and unused legislation!

 

Anyway, this is how I recall it!

 

By the way, anyone recall about 1990/1 was it when the Island had such an embarrassment of VAT riches that it did something like I don't know, pay your leccy meter standing charge or gas bill or something! It also adjusted income tax and that year for a brief period my wages went up £14 a week...I think the VAT went up and the Island did not want to follow and so gave the extra wonga away! Summat like that!

 

OK, off topic but as they say "Nothing lasts for ever!"

But you do believe Karran was genuine though? - I do still trust him.

Don`t remember that but I was about 13/14 at the time.

[Barrie Stevens]

When I say there is no Manx passport I meant Manx passport as in "Manx Citizen" ..The British Islands passport is commonly called a "Manx Passport" but the holders are British citizens and those with no direct established connection to the UK may have "that stamp"..

 

Apparently it says "European Union" on the front because although the Island is not fully in the EU holders of the British Islands passports are full British Citizens and also EU Citizens as an adjunct to their British status following EU treaty developments over the years...Excepted are those with that stamp denying in theory the right to employment and Establishment in the EU other than when in the UK.

 

I am advised that these days many EU member states ignore "that stamp" and for the sake of simplcity treat affected persons as if they are A OK EU fully paid up Brits/UK Nationals...This is the way it is all going folks!...