Religious Extremism

[wrighty]

I don't have a problem at all if people want to pray - if it helps them in any way good luck to them. Personally I think it's irrational, but perhaps the effect is similar to simply mulling things over, or 'sleeping on it', which is what I do to achieve the same ends.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I have a problem with people with people praying, but that's the problem I have with people believing in these supernatural things that supposedly have plans and intentions for them. Faith beliefs and religion definitely shouldn't be treated with respect when people discuss them openly. But even knowing other people believe these things bother me, as I think taking an interest in the truth and wanting to know what is true and what is not is really important.

 

I've not understood prayer in the way you describe as a possibility. I've always understood it as some appeal to a higher being. And if it doesn't involve that then why pray and not just mull things over?

[wrighty]

I absolutely agree that religious beliefs should have no special place in law, or politics, and should be afforded no special respect. The arguments 'goddidit' or 'it is written in a holy book' are clearly nonsense and should be treated with appropriate disdain. But if people want to believe in fairies and speak to them before bed, that's fine by me as long as they don't expect me to join in.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

If the belief is confined to something as innocuous as a pond fairy that does nothing or a God that is supposed to do nothing then irrational beliefs in such things aren't a problem. But when a person has an irrational belief that leads them to spend time thinking about it a lot; taking action (such as regular prayer); believing that they should do certain things and not others because of this God; believing responsibility for everything ultimately rests with this God; and thinking there's a better place to go to when they die I have a probem.

They may keep it to themselves, but this person is wasting their time and their life indulging in it and that's bother me. There is little I can do about it, other than hope they leave stop playing this toy.

 

And faith-based religion should be given no respect in any area of life. I can't see why it should have. In other area of life do we afford someone's thoughts and beliefs automatic respect. We judge them to find out whether they are worthy of it first.

[hornetman]

.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

As I said, it is a matter of wanting people to take an interest in what is true and what is not. And it is wanting what's best for society as a whole by hoping we can act more intelligent. It's a bit like the same sort of thing that would lead me to say I would want children to get a very good education. It doesn't directly affect me a great deal, except that I would prefer to interact with people who were better educated and think people deserve that education to make the most of their life.

In a similar way, having people pay attention to finding out what is true or not is important, as we need that to work out what's going in in the shared reality we have.

 

You have the sensible people who forms beliefs about how the universe began, why the sun rises, and how our bodies work based on evidence and who will say 'I don't know' about that which we don't have evidence for. But it disturbs me knowing there are those who couldn't give a shit about what is true and then make decisions beliefs they have no good reason to have. It's not a good thing. Such irrationality is to be discouraged.

 

Besides, it's a bit creepy. Do I really want to be around people knowing that in their heads they are spending time thinking about what some make-believe supernatural being expects of them and witness them doing things from what when they have no reason for it? And do I want to be around who think that their God doesn't just have a plan for him or her but also for me. And also know that they think I'm wrong and really need to come round to their way of seeing things. What people think is important if it relates to our reality, even if it isn't shared.

[Chinahand]

Debating whether something is useful is different from debating whether something is true.

Telling children they won't get presents from Father Christmas if they are naughty might be useful in getting them to behave, but it isn't true.

Quite large studies have been done on the effectivity of prayer - it doesn't work.

The biggest problem anyone confronting faith faces is the fact evidence based rationality only goes so far.

PZ Myers recently critiqued Neil De Grasse Tyson for over-claiming the importance of evidence based "rationalia":

Tyson Tweet:Earth needs a virtual country: #Rationalia, with a one-line Constitution: All policy shall be based on the weight of evidence.

Why has no one thought of this before? It’s brilliant!

Let’s try it with a simple test case and see if it works. There’s currently a bit of a tussle between competing interests in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness of Minnesota, which, if you’ve never heard of it, is a gorgeous pristine wilderness in the northern part of my state. On the one hand, you have the fact that it’s beautiful and wild…but that doesn’t seem very logical, especially when, on the other hand, a Chilean company wants to excavate a giant open pit copper mine there.
So, rational reasonable residents of Rationalia, please use your reason and rationality to deliver an evidence-based verdict to this problem. And don’t you try to sneak in human values into your solution, that would be cheating.

Everyone has principles which are based on non-evidence aspirations and values.

The principle "I will use evidence to justify my decisions" is no more evidence based than "I will use the bible to justify my decisions."

However I do think it is possible to show that religious principles are different than humanistic secular principles.

Religious faith is very different than the faith of a scientist.

As Tim Minchin sang:

 

“Science adjusts its views based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.”

My starting principles are that our knowledge is limited, may be wrong, and if any of my principles seem to be inadequate then I should try looking for some better principles.

That recursive uncertainty can be applied to itself making doubt a self-consistent part of my belief system! Zhuangzi would be proud!

Religions have the opposite initial principles - faith in the tenants of the religion: where it is virtuous to hold on to them even in the face of confounding evidence.

I see a connection between Bayes Theory for adjusting probabilistic knowledge based on new evidence and how we build from incredulity and ignorance to a rational understanding of our world.

You have to start with a set of principles - though there is nothing fixed about this; as Keynes said when things change you should change your mind. You then build your model, you then compare this to reality and if necessary adjust your model and/or your principles (the distinction between these two is philosophically and/or logically weak) to see if something better can result.

It is possible to have a starting principle that there is a invisible dragon living in your garage, but if you do, as you build knowledge that there is no evidence for such a dragon you should start to consider abandoning that principle.

Religions are build around stopping you doing that - maintaining faith/belief even in the face of confounding evidence.

That is my biggest problem with religion.

People are perfectly welcome to hold a different point of view, and I know many extremely thoughtful and intelligent people who are profoundly religious. We should all engage in the big conversation and try to understand - from our positions of ignnorance - if there is a better way to live our life ... and I'd hope that means accepting the principle we might be wrong, and hence reject the idea that faith is a necessary good - I see it as an obstacle to finding truth - though I might be wrong. Who knows!

[paswt]

Where is "Spook" these days

[Fliugh]

The problem with the Living Hope lot is that they attract people with events which aren't explicitly "churchy" - free Family Fun Days, Easter Egg hunts, festivals for teenagers, coffee mornings for pensioners, mums and tots groups etc - but the people who go along might not realise that the ONLY reason that Living Hope organises those events is so that they can attempt to win over/convert as many people as possible.

 

Apparently the Living Hope lot are all regularly told that the world is evil and so is everyone in it (except them, of course) and that anyone who doesn't believe exactly what they believe is heading straight for hell and is probably already possessed by the devil. So they're all told it's their urgent duty to convert as many people as possible. They know that quoting the bible at people will just turn them off, so instead they get people by love-bombing them: complimenting them, inviting them to "fun" social stuff, offering to help them/give them lifts, etc.

 

Once they've got people enmeshed in it, they then make it really hard for people to leave the cult.

 

Manxforums people are of course far too intelligent, well-balanced and sufficiently cynical to be taken in by these tactics!! Anyone vulnerable for any reason or without a strong social circle could easily be duped though and should be strongly warned off!

[quilp]

I absolutely agree that religious beliefs should have no special place in law, or politics, and should be afforded no special respect. The arguments 'goddidit' or 'it is written in a holy book' are clearly nonsense and should be treated with appropriate disdain. But if people want to believe in fairies and speak to them before bed, that's fine by me as long as they don't expect me to join in.

I wonder what your thoughts are on the efficacy of 'pastoral care'? Ya know, when it really comes down to it. It is my belief that the manx taxpayer funds this dubious practice to the tune of four (minimum)extra nurses every single year. Surely the church can afford to fund its own propaganda with its tax freedoms and donations.

 

What say ye?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The problem with the Living Hope lot is that they attract people with events which aren't explicitly "churchy" - free Family Fun Days, Easter Egg hunts, festivals for teenagers, coffee mornings for pensioners, mums and tots groups etc - but the people who go along might not realise that the ONLY reason that Living Hope organises those events is so that they can attempt to win over/convert as many people as possible.

 

Apparently the Living Hope lot are all regularly told that the world is evil and so is everyone in it (except them, of course) and that anyone who doesn't believe exactly what they believe is heading straight for hell and is probably already possessed by the devil. So they're all told it's their urgent duty to convert as many people as possible. They know that quoting the bible at people will just turn them off, so instead they get people by love-bombing them: complimenting them, inviting them to "fun" social stuff, offering to help them/give them lifts, etc.

 

Once they've got people enmeshed in it, they then make it really hard for people to leave the cult.

 

Manxforums people are of course far too intelligent, well-balanced and sufficiently cynical to be taken in by these tactics!! Anyone vulnerable for any reason or without a strong social circle could easily be duped though and should be strongly warned off!

I couldn't agree more. They are the worst church over here because they prey on children's minds by being the most fervent in their evangelism. Any organisation that makes it part of their goal to try and win over children and indoctrinate them is a serious threat.

 

I think another problem is that people are too 'live and let live' with religion and this means the general public ignore this problem.

[fredtosser]

Its certainly a good business if you can get it. Some serious cash flowing through the various branches, so much so at one point the "Pastor" had his £400k+ executive estate house in Port St Mary on the market whilst he moved to another in Douglas as it was too far to drive.

[Stu Peters]

 

Money. And getting to shag a load of gullible birds .

Where do I sign up?

 

 

Halleluja brother, I can feel the faith. Do they take Visa??

[paswt]

I remember one "cult" had "hookers for jesus" allegedly

[Fliugh]

I know of one young guy who got publicly told to leave Living Hope because he admitted that he was sleeping with his girlfriend even though they weren't married - shock horror - so I don't think 'hookers for jesus' is on their agenda. They keep track of each others computers to make sure no one is accessing porn. Feel sorry for all the teenagers the LH cult somehow manages to attract though, being told to keep their legs crossed or risk being publicly shamed...