La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Religion is a deeply personal thing and nobody should be allowed to belittle others for their faith, not least those with utmost faith in science. A very stupid position to take on the matter of religion. I do think the emphasis should be on a person's beliefs being belittled rather than the person. But religious beliefs involve positions about what is true and what is not and if the believers have nothing to show for their wild claims then being belittled is exactly the sort of the treatment that they opening themselves up to receiving. It is just wiser to hold back with friends that you don't want to upset. They're naive and foolish for thinking there is a God that has a plan for them, but as long as they know that you think their beliefs are bollocks then that is sometimes the best you can do. The faith you refer to in science is not the same meaning of faith that people have in religion. People have faith in a method that seems to work best at determining what is true and what is not or what is most likely to be true or not. Religious faith just means that the believer has no good reason for believing; it means they have no evidence. Beliefs resting on faith deserve no respect. Respect for a person's belief is owed to those who have good reasons for believing in what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManxTaxPayer Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 Respect for a person's belief is owed to those who have good reasons for believing in what they do. I disagree. Respect for a person's belief is owed to those who don't try and force that belief down your throat. Like you're trying to do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 The problem is that those with faith believe they have immunity from the norms that the rest of us have to live by. Their faith removes them from the normal parameters and that is expected to be acceptable because 'they have faith' or are 'spiritual'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yin & Yang Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Where do I sign up? The sex offender's register might be a good start. Sorry, probably inappropriate but this made me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Respect for a person's belief is owed to those who have good reasons for believing in what they do. I disagree. Respect for a person's belief is owed to those who don't try and force that belief down your throat. Like you're trying to do now. I don't respect beliefs for those reasons and I don't think others should. Well I have a deeply held belief that there are pixies living by the stream near my house, that they require that I pray to them by the stream, which affords me protection from bad luck, and demand that I leave them expensive biscuits every Tuesday to keep them happy. I have no good reason for believing this other than having happened to find some written stories about them. I will not force this belief on anyone. But do you respect this belief? I mean, other than use the word respect as a weasel word and treat it as meaning 'deserving of high value', do you think my belief deserves respect? If you say so, I think you're either a liar or have a very strange view of things. If I really thought this you should think I was mad or really fucking gullible. But there is nothing different than this made-up belief about pixies than believing in the Christian God, Hindu Gods, or Ancient Greek Gods. If you think these things exist and think these beings have some intentions or plans and have involvement in the real world then your belief deserves no respect unless you have good evidence. If a person makes claims about what goes on in the real world then those have to be justified. Sift out the nonsense and stick to what we can we know and what we don't by looking at evidence. If people have these faith beliefs then I much prefer they don't tell me, as I don't want to hear nonsense or get given the creeps, but it is better that people discuss them so there is some possibility of the naive person being able to critically assess their beliefs through talking with someone more rationally-minded (in this area). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yin & Yang Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 In this instance, I have met one of the 'true believers' from this group. A lovely woman with a beautiful soul, who knew from day one not to even attempt to try and force her religion on me! Extremism in religion as far as I am concerned (ISIS), is IMO just as bad as alcoholism, it's an illness which needs treating. I mean, who hasn't prayed to, 'whomever' when things are at the lowest of the low? Amended to remove a weird exclamation mark!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwell Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Bollocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I mean, who hasn't prayed to, 'whomever' when things are at the lowest of the low? Me. And I presume a lot of people. How can you pray to something you don't think exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llap Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Never mind the Bishop having a vote in Tynwald, this are the lot that worry me. Seem to have a lot of influence on the island and growing. https://www.facebook.com/livinghopecommunitychurch/videos/1207587415931998/ Edit as my link failed miserably. I've noticed them increase in number and never thought they would. I knew they were a cult from the beginning but didn't think they'd accumulate so many followers. They promote "prosperity gospel" which you can google and see is considered bullshit even by the major churches. What they teach is not Christianity or bible-based. I am always available to publicly debate them using the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llap Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I mean, who hasn't prayed to, 'whomever' when things are at the lowest of the low? Me. And I presume a lot of people. How can you pray to something you don't think exists? Easily. You switch off your lame millennial phony disbelief and admit for 2 seconds you haven't got s F ing clue if there is or isn't a higher plane of existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llap Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 The problem is that those with faith believe they have immunity from the norms that the rest of us have to live by. Their faith removes them from the normal parameters and that is expected to be acceptable because 'they have faith' or are 'spiritual'. Another problem is people apply this to Christians but not to Muslims. Then you'd be "racist". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yin & Yang Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I mean, who hasn't prayed to, 'whomever' when things are at the lowest of the low?Me. And I presume a lot of people. How can you pray to something you don't think exists? I don't have to believe that anything specific exists, I did pray when I was sat watching my father die, I didn't want to lose him, and I would have done anything if it meant I could make him well again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryPotter Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 In this instance, I have met one of the 'true believers' from this group. A lovely woman with a beautiful soul, who knew from day one not to even attempt to try and force her religion on me! Extremism in religion as far as I am concerned (ISIS), is IMO just as bad as alcoholism, it's an illness which needs treating. I mean, who hasn't prayed to, 'whomever' when things are at the lowest of the low? Amended to remove a weird exclamation mark!!! I agree with this although, unlike alcoholism, I've never seen a rehab group for recovering religious nuts. They should maybe set something up? It must be terrible for someone who has had a long term delusional obsession with space ghosts to go cold turkey and realize that it's all a load of complete bollocks and you've lost most of your friends because they wouldn't put up with the BS you kept talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I realise this is an intensely personal issue but I'm most quizzical about personal appeals for a deity to intervene in human tragedy. Look at this world and the laments so many people futilely direct towards heaven. God is clearly not moved to do anything about the huge majority of suffering in this world. How many weep for those precious to them yet see their prayers unanswered? How many cruel deaths from nature and from man befall those who dutifully cry out for mercy. I have to be honest, I do not know which is worse a totally indifferent God or one who ignores 99.999% of pleas directed towards him but arbitrarily answers the 0.001% acclaimed as miraculous. You regularly hear people claiming some baby plucked from wreckage or whatever is a miraculous survivor. What made God arbitrarily pick them while leaving the rest to die. The monstrosity of the massacre of the innocents, a central part of the nativity myth, glosses over God's deliberate intervention to save Jesus via a convenient dream. The other babies were left to be put to Death. The resulting anguish a too important part of his divine plan to be bothered to send a further dream or two or answer some mother's plaint to save her child from Herod's sword. Sorry, but I do not understand how anyone thinks prayer will change anything in this universe supremely indifferent to suffering, pain and death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManxTaxPayer Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Sorry, but I do not understand how anyone thinks prayer will change anything in this universe supremely indifferent to suffering, pain and death. You don't have to understand. Don't worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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