Living hope church again - teaching the kids

[llap]

Just now, Chinahand said:

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!!???

Marianic and saints cults developed from the grassroots. The Catholic Church had little to do with it. Just take the example of Joan of Arc. They let her be MURDERED by the English and it took 500 years before she was finally canonised by the Church. You think the cult around her didn't exist during those five centuries or her own life time? Catholics have always had an anti-clerical vein, a continous struggle between the grassroots and the institutional hierarchy.

[Declan]

8 minutes ago, llap said:

The point is, marianic and saints worship cults are grassroots; they're not established or enforced by any institutional hierarchy. In fact, it can often be the opposite in that they influence the church. A cult is a religion or group whose central point of worship is an individual - dead of alive (but even if they're dead, their adherents believe them to still be alive - eg Jesus, Muhammad - as spiritually to shed the mortal body is not death). That's the real distinction between a religion and a cult. 

So Buddism, Islam and Christianity are cults? Judaism isn't? Or is that a cult in search of a leader?

[Chinahand]

34 minutes ago, Craig King said:

 

1 hour ago, Albert Tatlock said:

 

Ahh, a sort of American Not The Nine O'Clock News I thought at first, but Sonseed are for real folks, there's no tongue in cheek here, Jesus is truly their friend.

 

Now, I realise Elvis Costello has been influential but I think even he would be surprised quite how far he's gone. 

[La Colombe]

46 minutes ago, llap said:

Then explain the cult of the Virgin Mary?

Intact. 

[mbx]

You're making Living Hope sound a bit like this

 

[Chinahand]

Joan of Arc wasn't exactly sidelined by the Catholic Chuch after her execution:

wikipedia:

In 1456, an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III examined the trial, debunked the charges against her, pronounced her innocent, and declared her a martyr.[9] In the 16th century she became a symbol of the Catholic League, and in 1803 she was declared a national symbol of France by the decision of Napoleon Bonaparte.[

[llap]

10 minutes ago, Declan said:

So Buddism, Islam and Christianity are cults? Judaism isn't? Or is that a cult in search of a leader?

Buddhism, Islam and Christianity are indeed cults. Judaism isn't; although it does have internal cults within it, such as the Lubavitchers. 

[llap]

5 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

Joan of Arc wasn't exactly sidelined by the Catholic Chuch after her execution:

wikipedia:

In 1456, an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III examined the trial, debunked the charges against her, pronounced her innocent, and declared her a martyr.[9] In the 16th century she became a symbol of the Catholic League, and in 1803 she was declared a national symbol of France by the decision of Napoleon Bonaparte.[

Declaring her innocent and a martyr is one thing; praying to her and venerating her is a whole different thing. The Catholic League and Rome are also two different things. Every step of the way, it was grassroots pressure which saw to it that she became SAINT John of Arc.

[llap]

I think Living Hope's "cult" is complete and utter capitalist glorification and worship of money. I'm surprised they even bother using Christian imaginary and don't go full flog and worship Henry Ford or somebody. Their entire theology and soteriology is money-centric. Frankly, I hope Jesus does come back just to see the look of disgust and indignation on his face when he sees what is being done in his name.

[RIchard Britten]

3 minutes ago, llap said:

I think Living Hope's "cult" is complete and utter capitalist glorification and worship of money. I'm surprised they even bother using Christian imaginary and don't go full flog and worship Henry Ford or somebody. Their entire theology and soteriology is money-centric. Frankly, I hope Jesus does come back just to see the look of disgust and indignation on his face when he sees what is being done in his name.

He wouldn't get through passport control, him being a swarthy Middle Eastern looking fella wearing sandals and talking in a funny language...

[Heffalump]

17 minutes ago, llap said:

I think Living Hope's "cult" is complete and utter capitalist glorification and worship of money. I'm surprised they even bother using Christian imaginary and don't go full flog and worship Henry Ford or somebody. Their entire theology and soteriology is money-centric. Frankly, I hope Jesus does come back just to see the look of disgust and indignation on his face when he sees what is being done in his name.

Ok, so what evidence is there for this worship of money?

According to their Facebook page last week they had "saints" visit from all over the world and they hired the villa which looked pretty full to me. Does this then show they are accountable to a bigger organisation outside of the Isle of Man and is this then not a good thing, or are they all not aware of this stuff going on here that is alleged like people saying they were treated badly, or is that just someone simply with an issue or offence that could happen in any church.

 

In other words why are living hope always catching the attention of so many?

Is it because they're actually doing pretty well for their numbers and people just don't like it?

Is it their leaders? Monetary gain? Etc etc 

[llap]

34 minutes ago, Heffalump said:

Ok, so what evidence is there for this worship of money?

According to their Facebook page last week they had "saints" visit from all over the world and they hired the villa which looked pretty full to me. Does this then show they are accountable to a bigger organisation outside of the Isle of Man and is this then not a good thing, or are they all not aware of this stuff going on here that is alleged like people saying they were treated badly, or is that just someone simply with an issue or offence that could happen in any church.

 

In other words why are living hope always catching the attention of so many?

Is it because they're actually doing pretty well for their numbers and people just don't like it?

Is it their leaders? Monetary gain? Etc etc 

 

Look, I don't have time to waste going and re-reading or re-listening to their moronic and biblically illiterate drivel.

I spent enough hours immersing myself into their preachings and also have had discussions with them which have convinced me they are nothing but a money-making cult.

It has nothing to do with them doing well in terms of numbers.

It comes down to this:

1. They teach that you have to give money to THEM.   Not to a charity, not to the nearby widow or orphan, not to a trust or settlement for charitable causes, not to any other church, but to THEM. To their BUSINESS. 

2. They teach that in order to be a Christian and to please God, you must do the above.

3. If you don't do the above, i.e. give money to their BUSINESS then God will be displeased with you and it shows you are not a true Christian, you lack real faith, and you're essentially a troublemaker and a reprobate who will go to hell. There is clear psychological manipulation taking place getting people to give money, or they'll feel like they're failing God or that there's something lacking in their faith.

4. They teach that you must give ten percent to their  BUSINESS irrespective of your financial situation. Everyone must give it whether they are poor or rich. 

5. All of the above is propped up with the absurd notion that wealth means you're right with God, because he's blessing you; and if you're poor, he's unhappy with you. They even say that if you give ten percent to them, God will bless you tenfold.

6. Then we come on to the whole matter, which is something I criticise in all churches and not just them, of publicly passing around collection plates during church service. I consider this an abomination. Not only do they want ten percent of your money, they also shove a collection plate in front of you, during a time at church when you're all supposed to be worshiping God, even doing so while the preaching sermon is taking place. That says it all. 

7. Their entire soteriology is based on giving them money. 

Bottom line here and which I have already mentioned: they're a registered business. B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S.  They can dress it up as being a charity but anyone with at least half a brain can see what is going on. Give them and only them your money, you go to heaven. Don't give them your money, maybe give it to a charity or people in need, and you go to hell. That's pretty much their theology and soteriology in a nutshell.

 

Meanwhile, in the Bible.......

“If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in the heavens." --- JESUS

No mention of giving it to the 2006 Act company called LIVING HOPE COMMUNITY CHURCH LTD.

[Dave Hedgehog]

I used to enjoy the religious types coming into school for a talk. It was always a great opportunity to piss about and not listen to a word they said.

[Heffalump]

1 hour ago, llap said:

 

Look, I don't have time to waste going and re-reading or re-listening to their moronic and biblically illiterate drivel.

I spent enough hours immersing myself into their preachings and also have had discussions with them which have convinced me they are nothing but a money-making cult.

It has nothing to do with them doing well in terms of numbers.

It comes down to this:

1. They teach that you have to give money to THEM.   Not to a charity, not to the nearby widow or orphan, not to a trust or settlement for charitable causes, not to any other church, but to THEM. To their BUSINESS. 

2. They teach that in order to be a Christian and to please God, you must do the above.

3. If you don't do the above, i.e. give money to their BUSINESS then God will be displeased with you and it shows you are not a true Christian, you lack real faith, and you're essentially a troublemaker and a reprobate who will go to hell. There is clear psychological manipulation taking place getting people to give money, or they'll feel like they're failing God or that there's something lacking in their faith.

4. They teach that you must give ten percent to their  BUSINESS irrespective of your financial situation. Everyone must give it whether they are poor or rich. 

5. All of the above is propped up with the absurd notion that wealth means you're right with God, because he's blessing you; and if you're poor, he's unhappy with you. They even say that if you give ten percent to them, God will bless you tenfold.

6. Then we come on to the whole matter, which is something I criticise in all churches and not just them, of publicly passing around collection plates during church service. I consider this an abomination. Not only do they want ten percent of your money, they also shove a collection plate in front of you, during a time at church when you're all supposed to be worshiping God, even doing so while the preaching sermon is taking place. That says it all. 

7. Their entire soteriology is based on giving them money. 

Bottom line here and which I have already mentioned: they're a registered business. B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S.  They can dress it up as being a charity but anyone with at least half a brain can see what is going on. Give them and only them your money, you go to heaven. Don't give them your money, maybe give it to a charity or people in need, and you go to hell. That's pretty much their theology and soteriology in a nutshell.

 

Meanwhile, in the Bible.......

“If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in the heavens." --- JESUS

No mention of giving it to the 2006 Act company called LIVING HOPE COMMUNITY CHURCH LTD.

Ok, so if you are alleging there is a touch of illegality to all of this, why have you or A N other not approached the bodies concerned like fsc etc and shared hard factual evidence?

Its a bit like the church themselves saying in your own words, "They even say that if you give ten percent to them, God will bless you tenfold." How do I know that god will bless me. Apparently on the say so of others (in this case, leaders), which in this case seems to work as they do attract people to their form of religion.

So, if you're convinced of this PROVE IT! Or are we getting another, I'm not going to waste my time explaining my answer to you, because that's all this ever seems to be.

Just being a Ltd company doesn't make it illegal, although I must admit it is a bit strange for a church.

People never seem to miss having a go at the successful church.....

Oh and here is the iom newspaper article now online.

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=34499&headline=Living+Hope+goes+into+our+schools&sectionIs=NEWS&searchyear=2017#readComments

[llap]

I have made no allegation of any illegality. Not even once.