P.K. Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 23 hours ago, Chinahand said: If people want to wear a Burkha, a kilt, a dress, spandex or lycra rock on. But just because you do, don't expect me to have the same opinion as you. The UK still has a poor record on women's rights whether it is the pay-gap, the amount of menial labour women do compared to men, or the tampon tax. But compared to mainstream Islamic jurisprudence, let alone extremist ideas, Muslim countries are far, far more oppressive. Religions subjugate and enforce cultural conservatism - just ask a young women in Iran who wishes to dance or uncover her hair. A culture which enforces the burkha is an oppressive culture and in my view should be sidelined in a modern society. Excellent post Mr C. I edited your effort down because the above seems to encapsulate the issues. Firstly Boris left the cabinet because he thought by Davis leaving first he had got ahead of him in the queue for #10. However he has since realised that being a back-bencher means he's in the shadows which is no good for his ego let alone his political ambitions. Hence a choice of topic that will divide his party and yet will give him excellent coverage in the UK right-wing press, which is to say pretty much all of it. Can't fault the logic. Secondly the paper he writes in and all the rest of the right-wing press pack trumpeted how he has brought this contentious issue into sharp relief. Eh? I mean, if it's cultural/racism/whatever it's almost as though the harrowing "Three Girls" was never produced and broadcast by the BBC. So I would like to know what exactly this "contentious issue" actually is? Sure states like Iran enforce this kind of nonsense but the UK isn't an oppressive regime now is it? Or is it about racism, which is always in the news anyway, or is it just about the burkha? I mean, are Plonks going to sidle up to women and surreptitiously ask them "Are you wearing the burkha by choice? Or are you subjugated by an oppressive husband?" or whatever. To me it's just what Boris does best - a load of hot air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 The ironic thing is Boris didn't call for a ban. He said it would be wrong to impose a ban on what adults wear. He says, not unreasonably, that there may be circumstances where full face covering is inappropriate but that should be decided by the individual organisation. The problem is he's used unnecessary flowery language "post box", "bank robber" etc. This would have been a bit mundane "there she goes again" if this was Katie Hopkins or Kelvin MacKenzie, but this is a man who was Foreign Secretary a few weeks ago, long-time mayor of the capital, who blatantly aspires to being Prime Minister. He's, at heart, far more urbane and liberal than most of the Tory Party. He will have known of the impact of those words. And didn't care, that's why he's unsuitable for high office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted August 10, 2018 Author Share Posted August 10, 2018 Other than courts, schools and banks, the issue for me isn’t a ban it is the clash of individual rights. Can an owner of an establishment request a person entering their premises to remove a burka or does that infringe the burka wearers religious freedoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Islamophobia should be treated in the same way and to the same level of sensitivity as what anti semitism is. Or vice versa. Either way, of all things they should be equal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 its got the #snowflakes wound up at least...... he used to write the same sort of stuff in the guardian i was told...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 41 minutes ago, woody2 said: its got the #snowflakes wound up at least...... he used to write the same sort of stuff in the guardian i was told...... You were told wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Not a regular reader but I don't recall Boris ever being a Guardian columnist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: Other than courts, schools and banks, the issue for me isn’t a ban it is the clash of individual rights. Can an owner of an establishment request a person entering their premises to remove a burka or does that infringe the burka wearers religious freedoms. That's an interesting debate. As so often happens with modern discussions it's My Rights vs Yours. But the way through it is to apply common sense. Is there a good reason for a business owner to refuse to serve a burkha wearer / bake a gay cake / allow more than 2 schoolchildren in at once? If so let him crack on. If there isn't (and not liking muslims / religious beliefs / being a grumpy git don't count) then the individual liberty trumps restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Just now, Declan said: not liking muslims / religious beliefs / being a grumpy git Where is Rog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: Other than courts, schools and banks, the issue for me isn’t a ban it is the clash of individual rights. Can an owner of an establishment request a person entering their premises to remove a burka or does that infringe the burka wearers religious freedoms. I am with you on this. It should be a matter of personal choice and there is certainly a fine balance between the right of an individual and the rights of an "establishment". As a biker I am asked to remove my helmet when paying for fuel in a petrol station. Yet an individual wearing a burka will not be asked to remove the burka. I am not offended by that but find it interesting that many people still choose to wear a motorcycle helmet rather than a burka when committing a crime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: As a biker I am asked to remove my helmet when paying for fuel in a petrol station. Yet an individual wearing a burka will not be asked to remove the burka. I am not offended by that but find it interesting that many people still choose to wear a motorcycle helmet rather than a burka when committing a crime... Presumably it's easy to get make a quick getaway, in a helmet, leathers and riding a motorbike than in an all-over robe. It might be necessary to remove the head covering in a bank. But if a bank chose to ban motorcycle helmets but not a burkha, because a risk assessment said that there was a vastly greater risk of an armed robber wearing a motorcycle helmet than a burkha, that would be reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Declan said: Presumably it's easy to get make a quick getaway, in a helmet, leathers and riding a motorbike than in an all-over robe. Maybe, but then most of the scrotes who seem to commit such crimes ride a scooter... hardly a quick getaway! Just put on a burka, steal whatever it is you want, go outside and dive in your mates car. Then all the right wing extremists will call for Islam to be wiped out. Job done! In all seriousness I take your point, and as I said I personally have no complaints about it. To me this debate must be about religious freedom and women not being forced to wear them. I have seen pictures which are alleged to have been taken in Iran in the 60's (I think) which show women in very western clothing with no burka's in site. No idea if the image is genuine or not but its an interesting thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Maybe, but then most of the scrotes who seem to commit such crimes ride a scooter... hardly a quick getaway! Just put on a burka, steal whatever it is you want, go outside and dive in your mates car. Then all the right wing extremists will call for Islam to be wiped out. Job done! Surely, it's hard to run in a Burkha. I watched a documentary about these two robbers who disguised themselves as nuns and hid in a nunnery - they had all sorts of scrapes I can tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 In a way Boris is merely climbing on to the burqa ban bandwagon because burqa bans like the Belgian one have been challenged in the ECHR where they failed. According to the ECHR : "The court found Belgium had the right to impose restrictions aiming to ensure the principles of “living together” and the “protection of the rights and freedoms of others”. "It is a practice that the ECHR considered to be incompatible, in Belgian society, with social communication and more generally the establishment of human relations, which are indispensable for life in a society and therefore essential to ensure the functioning of a democratic society." Personally I find that reasonable. However I've never tried to communicate with someone wearing a burqa (presumably a woman) and I wonder how many on here have...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 2 hours ago, manxman1980 said: I am with you on this. It should be a matter of personal choice and there is certainly a fine balance between the right of an individual and the rights of an "establishment". As a biker I am asked to remove my helmet when paying for fuel in a petrol station. Yet an individual wearing a burka will not be asked to remove the burka. I am not offended by that but find it interesting that many people still choose to wear a motorcycle helmet rather than a burka when committing a crime... unless they ride on a first bus...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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