Great news for the island's financial services reputation

[Barrie Stevens]

8 hours ago, gettafa said:

What part did UK play in the birch?

The UK plays a big part in our lawmaking, even if it is tacet. Perhaps the relationship needs to be tested. Cannabis laws for example. But there is enough cash in reserves saved up from the bonanza VAT years, to keep our government sanguine for a few years yet before there has to be any radical measures.

Someone took a case against the UK in the European Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg in respect of the birch. It was Tyrell v UK 1973 without checking. Basically the UK lost and the IOM suspended the birch. The UK is responsible for the IOM human rights at Strasbourg ultimately. Later the birch was taken off the statute books by the IOM

[Barrie Stevens]

1 minute ago, Barrie Stevens said:

Someone took a case against the UK in the European Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg in respect of the birch. It was Tyrell v UK 1973 without checking. Basically the UK lost and the IOM suspended the birch. The UK is responsible for the IOM human rights at Strasbourg ultimately. Later the birch was taken off the statute books by the IOM

 

1 minute ago, Barrie Stevens said:

Someone took a case against the UK in the European Court of Human Rights at Strasbourg in respect of the birch. It was Tyrell v UK 1973 without checking. Basically the UK lost and the IOM suspended the birch. The UK is responsible for the IOM human rights at Strasbourg ultimately. Later the birch was taken off the statute books by the IOM

And it is not an EU matter so Brexit will not make change...

[Neil Down]

9 hours ago, gettafa said:

What part did UK play in the birch?

The UK plays a big part in our lawmaking, even if it is tacet. Perhaps the relationship needs to be tested. Cannabis laws for example. But there is enough cash in reserves saved up from the bonanza VAT years, to keep our government sanguine for a few years yet before there has to be any radical measures.

Sitting back and doing nothing is going to deplete those reserves

[gettafa]

Yes of course.

But the Jacks are alright. They'll have plenty of it stashed by then. 

[Roger Mexico]

15 hours ago, James Hampton said:

When was the last time the UK directly legislated for the IOM? 

January if not more recently.  Of course most of the measures are fairly uncontentious, like that one was, but Westminster legislates for the Island in all sort of international areas and will be will be happy to impose local legislation to conform if needed.  Usually a few 'quiet words' are enough.

They may even force change on purely internal matters if the Manx situation becomes too obviously corrupt or embarrassing - the classic example was in the 1860s where they had to force the Keys into having elections to itself rather than just appointing its cronies perpetually.  Of course all they then did was to recreate the same system as previously for LegCo, though with its own upper house even less democratic, the UK is unlikely to intervene there.

[James Hampton]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

January if not more recently.  Of course most of the measures are fairly uncontentious, like that one was, but Westminster legislates for the Island in all sort of international areas and will be will be happy to impose local legislation to conform if needed.  Usually a few 'quiet words' are enough.

They may even force change on purely internal matters if the Manx situation becomes too obviously corrupt or embarrassing - the classic example was in the 1860s where they had to force the Keys into having elections to itself rather than just appointing its cronies perpetually.  Of course all they then did was to recreate the same system as previously for LegCo, though with its own upper house even less democratic, the UK is unlikely to intervene there.

Thanks Roger.

Legislation on international matters is an accepted constitutional arrangement. I should have qualified my question with ‘local’  or ‘national’ legislation.

Isle of Man voters assume that in all areas other than defense and international relations the representatives they elect will have the power to make all decisions for them - that is the constitutional position stated on the government website.

Most people are aware that the UK has final say (I guess the underlying assumption is this could be challenged if necessary), but what this action shows is that the current constitutional position with regards self determination is only held upon the whim of UK politicians. We are entirely at the mercy of the caprice of people we have no power over whatsoever. It effectively removes the illusion of self determination, placing us in a position that would be unacceptable to virtually any other ‘developed’ society doesn’t it?

[Donald Trumps]

Yes, Tynwald members - and the free press/media - should ask Quayle why this long standing issue has not yet been resolved, and - if it is beyond resolution - what exactly our constitutional options are

[Augustus]

The issue is not the UK legislating for the Isle of Man, but the UK legislating for the Isle of Man without our consent. The former happens quite regularly. The latter is extremely rare.

[hissingsid]

Apparently they have dropped the motion in Westminster according to the BBC.

[James Hampton]

40 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

Apparently they have dropped the motion in Westminster according to the BBC.

Did it say why? 

Perhaps someone in the know pointed out the fact this wasn’t the done thing. Clearly they felt nothing prevented it. 

[Barrie Stevens]

Just now, James Hampton said:

Did it say why? 

Perhaps someone in the know pointed out the fact this wasn’t the done thing. Clearly they felt nothing prevented it. 

Scroll back it has been explained

[Barrie Stevens]

48 minutes ago, Augustus said:

The issue is not the UK legislating for the Isle of Man, but the UK legislating for the Isle of Man without our consent. The former happens quite regularly. The latter is extremely rare.

Not unless the chips are down. The real power is in  London and UK international aims and obligations come first. The illusion is that a deal is cut or the Islands back down before the issue goes too far. 

[NoTail]

The way things are heading,  all EU citizens will have their tax returns made public,  if you want a trade deal then your citizens will have to comply .....

 

This is some way out in the future 

[Roger Mexico]

5 hours ago, James Hampton said:

Most people are aware that the UK has final say (I guess the underlying assumption is this could be challenged if necessary), but what this action shows is that the current constitutional position with regards self determination is only held upon the whim of UK politicians. We are entirely at the mercy of the caprice of people we have no power over whatsoever. It effectively removes the illusion of self determination, placing us in a position that would be unacceptable to virtually any other ‘developed’ society doesn’t it?

But that complete 'self-determination' has never existed in recorded history.  Even in the period of the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles, the Island was always under the nominal superior control of somewhere else: Dublin, Norway, England, Scotland.  Often with more than one claiming it at the same time.  And those other realms felt perfectly able to assert their superiority by turning up with lots of men with big swords.

So it was always an illusion and that has never changed.  If our politicians have somehow managed to convince themselves otherwise in the last couple of decades (perhaps with the lessening in prominence of the Governor), they're just deluding themselves.

They're also deluding themselves about self-determination, which is an illusion for any nation.  If it wishes to exist in the same world as any other country then it has to make compromises as to how to interact via trade, travel and so on.  Even North Korea has to do this.  In our case the UK has always controlled such relationships and most clashes with it have been when the Island refused to go along with what the UK had agreed on our behalf, as it was entitled to.

[Uhtred]

2 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

But that complete 'self-determination' has never existed in recorded history.  Even in the period of the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles, the Island was always under the nominal superior control of somewhere else: Dublin, Norway, England, Scotland.  Often with more than one claiming it at the same time.  And those other realms felt perfectly able to assert their superiority by turning up with lots of men with big swords.

So it was always an illusion and that has never changed.  If our politicians have somehow managed to convince themselves otherwise in the last couple of decades (perhaps with the lessening in prominence of the Governor), they're just deluding themselves.

They're also deluding themselves about self-determination, which is an illusion for any nation.  If it wishes to exist in the same world as any other country then it has to make compromises as to how to interact via trade, travel and so on.  Even North Korea has to do this.  In our case the UK has always controlled such relationships and most clashes with it have been when the Island refused to go along with what the UK had agreed on our behalf, as it was entitled to.

Naughty Rog...pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes and spoiling the game of make-believe played out on 5th July every year. You devil.