Great news for the island's financial services reputation

[NoTail]

I think Rog has it right. 

Of course it means that we live a very precarious existence 

[Albert Tatlock]

Constitutional crisis averted

 

[woolley]

1 hour ago, NoTail said:

The way things are heading,  all EU citizens will have their tax returns made public,  if you want a trade deal then your citizens will have to comply .....

 

This is some way out in the future 

Can't see that. Never get through Parliament. Contrary to popular belief the EU is not omnipotent, and it too has to compromise.

[woolley]

23 hours ago, MrPB said:

Over the Radio Caroline affair in the late 1960s. We refused to legislate against pirate radio stations in our territorial waters but they extended parts of the UK Communicstions Act to cover the IOM if I recall correctly. Pretty much shut it all down overnight which is what they seem to want to do again. 

Marine etc. Broadcasting (Offences) Act 1967 (later repealed by the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006) became law in the UK at midnight on 14th August 1967. The MV Caroline broadcasting as Radio Caroline North was anchored in international waters of course - not territorial waters, or they may as well have set up shop onshore - and they were tendered from Ramsey Harbour. Ultimately, the legislation could not stop Caroline, well, not directly, because the law had no jurisdiction in international waters. Consequent lack of money from the ban on UK advertisers however, and very long supply routes did put them of the air for a while 6 months later. The operation of both the North and South (off Essex) stations continued normally until 2nd March 1968, when they were both boarded and towed away on behalf of the Dutch tender company for non-payment of bills. http://www.offshoreradio.co.uk/towed1.htm

Fairly good account here of the rumpus at the time and rebellious threats by the Keys to declare independence, appeal to the UN etc, all of which came to nought as ever. The MOA was finally applied to the Isle of Man on 31st August 1967. http://www.offshoreradiomuseum.co.uk/page971.html

As ever, the constitutional relationship is a tool of the UK. Within its limits we have certain freedoms to operate within an understood framework that largely mirrors UK practice. On the rare occasions that we get too big for our boots, as in the Radio Caroline saga above, we are very quickly disabused of our fantasies and brought to heel. This is what makes the notions of Murphy and his ilk, demonising the islands for supposedly running rings around a hapless UK on tax, beneficial ownership etc. so risible, and I told him so very many years ago.

[James Hampton]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

But that complete 'self-determination' has never existed in recorded history.  Even in the period of the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles, the Island was always under the nominal superior control of somewhere else: Dublin, Norway, England, Scotland.  Often with more than one claiming it at the same time.  And those other realms felt perfectly able to assert their superiority by turning up with lots of men with big swords.

So it was always an illusion and that has never changed.  If our politicians have somehow managed to convince themselves otherwise in the last couple of decades (perhaps with the lessening in prominence of the Governor), they're just deluding themselves.

They're also deluding themselves about self-determination, which is an illusion for any nation.  If it wishes to exist in the same world as any other country then it has to make compromises as to how to interact via trade, travel and so on.  Even North Korea has to do this.  In our case the UK has always controlled such relationships and most clashes with it have been when the Island refused to go along with what the UK had agreed on our behalf, as it was entitled to.

Again agreed Roger.

As already mentioned perhaps this page requires an edit...

https://www.gov.im/about-the-government/departments/cabinet-office/external-relations/constitution/

“The Isle of Man is an internally self-governing dependency of the British Crown” - except when UK politicians decide otherwise.

The point for me though is that you would hope the public (not the politicians) would be slightly concerned when faced with the realisation that they are ultimately governed by people entirely outside their influence. As you say, it’s more analogous to the Viking era than any modern society! What does it say that apathy has reached such a level that really nobody cares who’s calling the shots so long as it doesn’t hurt me - the irony of course being that this move probably would have!

[woolley]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

But that complete 'self-determination' has never existed in recorded history.  Even in the period of the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles, the Island was always under the nominal superior control of somewhere else: Dublin, Norway, England, Scotland.  Often with more than one claiming it at the same time.  And those other realms felt perfectly able to assert their superiority by turning up with lots of men with big swords.

So it was always an illusion and that has never changed.  If our politicians have somehow managed to convince themselves otherwise in the last couple of decades (perhaps with the lessening in prominence of the Governor), they're just deluding themselves.

Indeed. But take it a step further. Unless you are Mec Vannin would you really want the independent Manx Republic if it were within reach? Goodness knows that the Island's politicians get enough of a pasting for incompetence now. How would it be if there was no Royal Assent backstop and they had free rein to do exactly as they chose? For certain the den of iniquity accusations of financial laissez-faire would intensify, and if the foundation of the state was not ultimately British sovereignty based on British law, how on Earth would we attract new business? What would we use for a currency? I think we would find out pretty quickly that without our status as a satellite of the City, we would be just a very impoverished rock in the sea. I think that most people are realistic enough to understand this.

Not everyone agrees, of course. My mind goes back to the lamented monkeyboy with whom I had the occasional set to on here on the subject. He thought we could spurn Mammon and make it purely with the ingenuity of the Manx people alone and a resurgence of tourism. It's an idyllic view but not, I fear, a practical one.

[gettafa]

In which case the Isle of Man needs to come up with counter measures. At the moment our Government is compliant and subservient to Westminster. It will take hard tines for that to change. Things may well be changing in a few years.

[woolley]

3 minutes ago, MrPB said:

This is surely a Brexit play by UKG to push us out of the way so London can reap the main benefits as a low tax centre after Brexit I’d wager? More to this than meets the eye. 

I honestly don't think so. I think it is a concerted effort by the UK executive to preserve the status quo (the City and its network of offshore satellites that feed it) in the face of some inconvenient and persistent agitating by a cross party group of MPs. They will play for time until the next general election in the hope that the problem goes away.

[woolley]

5 minutes ago, gettafa said:

In which case the Isle of Man needs to come up with counter measures. At the moment our Government is compliant and subservient to Westminster. It will take hard tines for that to change. Things may well be changing in a few years.

I think you are falling into the Murphy trap of seeing this as an adversarial relationship with brilliant minds on the islands on the one side running rings around the stupid saps in Whitehall who don't have a clue on the other. It doesn't work like that - see Radio Caroline experience.

[gettafa]

Maybe I am being naive. (Although my point was that there may well be hard times looming, which might prompt radical action). You're dead right about the er, brilliant minds on the Island though.

And on that note here's a Tweet from Howard with a little bleat from Phil Gawne (I have to say for once I see where he is coming from, but there is no chance of independence happening.)

[woolley]

1 minute ago, MrPB said:

Not convinced. 

If the UK put all of its offshores out of business, it would do for the City what Beeching did for British Railways when he closed two thirds of the network. You cut off all of the branch feeders and the trunk is damaged. They don't want to do it and that is why the Bill was pulled from Parliament when it was amended by these MPs.

[woolley]

There will no doubt be similar releases from Jersey and Guernsey. Sometimes all three release the same thing almost word for word. What an astounding coincidence!

[gettafa]

Anyway, I think Howard should get his secretary to draft a stiff letter for him to send to the UK Government.

[Uhtred]

6 hours ago, gettafa said:

Maybe I am being naive. (Although my point was that there may well be hard times looming, which might prompt radical action). You're dead right about the er, brilliant minds on the Island though.

And on that note here's a Tweet from Howard with a little bleat from Phil Gawne (I have to say for once I see where he is coming from, but there is no chance of independence happening.)

With 16 “likes” that’s quadrupled Quayle’s usual Tweet tally.

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, Uhtred said:

With 16 “likes” that’s quadrupled Quayle’s usual Tweet tally.

The fact that Gawne thought and suggested we should pursue full independence speaks volumes. Utter moron.