Sheldon Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 3 minutes ago, P.K. said: As Hamas are totally amoral they just view it as a useful tactic to use despite any civilian casualties that their actions may cause. Because they simply view civilians as expendable. If setting innocent civilians up in this way is totally amoral on the part of Hamas, what does that make the IDF and their political masters when they fire rockets at the hospitals? If Hamas genuinely don't care about the civilians (and you may well be right there) then Israel are giving them exactly what they set out to achieve on that awful day in October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, Sheldon said: If setting innocent civilians up in this way is totally amoral on the part of Hamas, what does that make the IDF and their political masters when they fire rockets at the hospitals? If Hamas genuinely don't care about the civilians (and you may well be right there) then Israel are giving them exactly what they set out to achieve on that awful day in October. The only rocket that hit a hospital that I'm aware of was fired by Islamic Jihad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheldon Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 1 minute ago, P.K. said: The only rocket that hit a hospital that I'm aware of was fired by Islamic Jihad. Don't be so obviously disingenuous. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68706533 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 @Sheldon I don't tell lies. I have no need to. From your link: "Footage shows burned buildings at al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, two weeks after it came under siege by Israeli troops. "The Hamas-run health ministry and witnesses who spoke to the BBC said the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have pulled out of the territory's biggest hospital. "The raid happened after Israel said it had intelligence indicating Hamas was using the hospital as a base to launch attacks. "Hamas has denied using medical sites to carry out military operations." Is that the same hospital where footage showed hostages being taken through? Just watched the Beeb reporting some aid workers have been killed in a strike on a convoy. Netanyahu has admitted it was in error. The problem is that wars are fought by people and people fuck up. Apparently comms are a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 "Unintended strike" of clearly marked aid vehicles on a pre-approved route discussed with Israeli forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Sure, as Netanyahu has admitted, it's a fuckup. I mean, if it was deliberate what could Israel possibly gain from it? All Israel will get for it is grief that they don't need. You're so blinded by your prejudices you just don't think these things through, do you...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 33 minutes ago, P.K. said: if it was deliberate what could Israel possibly gain from it? Starving Gaza is part of their strategy. Here's what they gained: According to you, when Gazan civilians die it's Hamas' fault. When the IDF destroys aid vehicles in 3 separate targeted strikes it's an oopsie-daisy. The IDF could come to your house and fuck your cat and you'd blame the cat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 37 minutes ago, P.K. said: Sure, as Netanyahu has admitted, it's a fuckup. It's a massive fuckup... How did the IDF precision target aid vehicles in a deconflicted zone on a predetermined route which the IDF had been informed about? Cock-up over conspiracy sure but this is one almighty cock-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 Amazing that the world seems to be waking up because a handful of western aid workers have been accidentally bombed. Not too bothered by the 10000 Gazan kids though 🙄 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 11 minutes ago, wrighty said: Amazing that the world seems to be waking up because a handful of western aid workers have been accidentally bombed. Not too bothered by the 10000 Gazan kids though 🙄 Those kids aren't the right race or religion though... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amadeus Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Local virtue signalling incoming. At least they condemn Hamas. And it’s Hamas who can have a ceasefire any time by giving up. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid026qzZYr4Wv7Yqi1JdZeixXdEp6GDAdpVpAE4LgvHiqXnK1H5e4TcG12377xuPZNKkl&id=100064842975813 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 9 hours ago, HeliX said: Starving Gaza is part of their strategy. Here's what they gained: According to you, when Gazan civilians die it's Hamas' fault. When the IDF destroys aid vehicles in 3 separate targeted strikes it's an oopsie-daisy. The IDF could come to your house and fuck your cat and you'd blame the cat. Hamas deliberately put civilians in harms way. The IDF drop leaflets telling them to evacuate the target area and despite being perfectly mobile they still stay put. Explain why that is...? The terrible press this episode is receiving tells me It's a "fog of war" fuckup. To expect none to happen is naive in the extreme. But then that's you all over... Incidentally I hate cats... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 4 minutes ago, P.K. said: Hamas deliberately put civilians in harms way. The IDF drop leaflets telling them to evacuate the target area and despite being perfectly mobile they still stay put. Explain why that is...? Do you not see the contradiction? If Hamas deliberately put civilians in harms way then those same civilians are not "perfectly mobile". They will potentially be as much hostages of Hamas as those who were taken from Israel. By the way, what has happened to rescuing those hostages? 4 minutes ago, P.K. said: The terrible press this episode is receiving tells me It's a "fog of war" fuckup. To expect none to happen is naive in the extreme. But then that's you all over... Incidentally I hate cats... It sounds less and less like a "fog of war" fuckup the more comes into the press. The Guardian, referring to the Israeli daily Haaretz are reporting; "According to the report, an Israeli drone fired three missiles, one after the other, at the convoy of three armoured cars – all of which were clearly marked on the roof and sides with the WCK’s logo – because of a suspicion that an armed militant was travelling with them. Despite the fact that the suspect did not leave the warehouse with the rest of the group, the cars were hit as they travelled back along a route pre-approved and coordinated with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). A Hermes 450 drone struck one car, causing some of the passengers to abandon it and switch to the other two vehicles. According to Haaretz, the team notified the IDF they had been attacked, but another missile then hit the second car. Passengers in the third car tried to help the wounded, the newspaper said. According to the Guardian’s geolocation of the strikes, the last car was hit by a third missile about a mile farther south." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/charities-halt-gaza-operations-after-israeli-drones-kill-aid-workers Just let that sink in... The first vehicle is hit, the team notify the IDF that they had been attacked and then the IDF strike the second car. People in the third car try to help the wounded before a third missile hits. I heard this morning that 196 aid workers have been killed in Gaza (that Guardian report says 200) and is reportedly three time as high as the death toll recorded in any other single conflict in a year. You were telling us all how the IDF are highly trained, can strike with incredible accuracy and yet you seem to want to dismiss this incident as "fog of war"?! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 You can't dismiss something that has happened. But you can explain it. The vehicles were deliberately targetted because the IDF acted on faulty intelligence. That should be obvious even to the likes of @HeliX and @TheTeapot The comms are a mess. The reason they are a mess is simple. The IDF say they have proof that aid agencies are infiltrated by Hamas and/or their supporters i.e. pretty much any Palestinian you care to mention. Therefore not only will the IDF not give them any direct access to their communication systems, which would be sheer folly, but everything that does come through "other means" as It's called will have to be verified before they will act upon it. Obviously this not only adds a delay but it also increases the chances of a misunderstanding. In other words things get lost in translation. Also military comms VP is structured in such a way that it avoids any room for confusion and consequently takes a lot of training and practice. So It's not something civilians will have. After all, how much VP training does a TT Marshall get? So it is, unfortunately, pretty much inevitable over time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 @P.K. Sorry, I don't accept that explanation. That aid convoy was travelling in a deconflicted area, with approval from the IDF. The vehicles were clearly identifiable and judging by the reports had a means of communication to the IDF. After the first strike and then receiving the message from the convoy that they were under attack why did the IDF not pause? It continued with two more precise attacks. As for the IDF having proof that aid agencies are infiltrated by Hamas and/or their supporters when can we expect to see this evidence? I thought it was just UNWRA that was allegations were made against or has that now been extended to every single aid agency? Sounds rather convenient for a Government that is allegedly on the verge of committing genocide according to the ICJ. The UK & USA need to stop providing arms to the Israeli Government now. Even the Israeli people appear to believe that their Government has gone to far. What more will it take for you to think the same? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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