New work permit exemptions to assist recruitment of health and social workers

[Barrie Stevens]

Spook When you say improve employability does this include making one's self younger by some means? ie the Elixir of Youth?

 

A lot of hidden unemployment everywhere is caused by age discrimination and with an influx of younger people from all over the world a lot of people are forced out or not hired due to their age....and that "old age" increasingly means "over 30"

 

In the UK I am told you no longer have to state your age on job applications.

 

Also, just because there is a job at the Job Centre does not mean that you can fit it...And a lot of people simply do not have he stamina or eye for detail required even for low paid cleaning jobs or kitchen portering for that matter. The number of jobs on the display is irrelevant and often they are dummy cards or left up there when the jobs has been long gone.

 

I worked all of my many years on the Isle of Man in low paid jobs amongst people of the lower skilled/older age variety. Indeed, I was a migrant worker myself until I completed the full five years to become an Isle of Man Worker and it took 20 years for me to get there.

 

So I claim to know a lot about what goes on...Many, many employers get away with not paying the minimum wage..The people they employ are usually foreigners (Not British people but very foreign) They do not complain as the pay is still good and they are in any case insecure.

 

My experience was that totally ignoring the work permit system was rife.

 

Point is all these employment laws are fine and dandy for "us" Brits/Manx etc we will take it to the wire and complain and that is another reason why the foreigners get employed.

 

Even on the Island I worked alongside migrant workers who were paid less than me "But don't tell 'em please!" I mean people were advertising that they would work for £4 and hour. "Giss a job!"

 

I worked as a cleaner at "Colours" night club amongst other places and was allowed one foreign assistant. I was paid £6.50 an hour and they a pound less. "But don't tell 'em". In fact the Polish staff were all paid less for the same job.

 

I worked for cleaning firms who did not bother with work permits and seemed happy to get fined. I think the benefits of flogging cheap labour to death in situations we would not accept ie working 18 hour days non-stop for buttons outweighed getting done for no work permit.

 

The migrants were happy to get the work..any work...

 

Things have settled down a lot now and I think this "flogging" the migrant has eased up a bit but still goes on.. I am writing about 2008 when I last worked...But that was my experience for many years.

[spook]

If a person is unemployed and work is available that they can do they should be made to do it or lose all benefits and support, and some form of curfew (using a tag?) should be imposed in order to reduce the liklihood of them committing crime.

[spook]

 

Cut benefits and get people to work.

Refuse work if a person is capable of doing it and NO benefits whatsoever. It really is that simple, especially as there is minimum wage legislation and if people don't like the standard of living that they can afford then either improve their employability - or live with it.

And don't anyone think for a second that I don't absolutely mean it.

 

We know you mean it. That's why we pity you....

 

No doubt you will applaud this farrago as well

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/18/dwp-admits-making-up-positive-quotes-from-benefits-claimants-for-leaflet

I totally applaud it, it's no more than a form of 'faq'.

[Albert Tatlock]

It's a far more complex picture than many people think, especially if health workers bring in partners, children etc. Partners will not need work permits, children will need educating, dentistry etc.

 

We do need to do far more to address the underclass that is developing here, the economy has collapsed in terms of what many of them historically moved into, such as manufacturing and construction.

 

Our whole economic model needs a major reasssessment.

[Amadeus]

@ Amadeus: Maybe because nobody wants to work as a fucking taxi driver? You can't force people, you know. Christ sake...

 

 

 

 

OK, so it's acceptable to refuse work that is available and live on other people who are working for no other reason than you don't want to do it? Tough shit. What happened to pride, dignity and shame? I don't want to pay for able bodied people to sit on their arses and do nothing.

 

Huh? That's not what I meant. Someone pointed out all the immigrants who apparently have the audacity to drive taxis on the island. My point was that if you suddenly banned all of them from driving cabs, 'locals' probably wouldn't race to fill those jobs as they wouldn't want to do that type of work, and you can't force them to do it. The whole "evil immigrants take poor manxies jobs" thing is bullshit, bascially.

[spook]

 

@ Amadeus: Maybe because nobody wants to work as a fucking taxi driver? You can't force people, you know. Christ sake...

OK, so it's acceptable to refuse work that is available and live on other people who are working for no other reason than you don't want to do it? Tough shit. What happened to pride, dignity and shame? I don't want to pay for able bodied people to sit on their arses and do nothing.

 

Huh? That's not what I meant. Someone pointed out all the immigrants who apparently have the audacity to drive taxis on the island. My point was that if you suddenly banned all of them from driving cabs, 'locals' probably wouldn't race to fill those jobs as they wouldn't want to do that type of work, and you can't force them to do it. The whole "evil immigrants take poor manxies jobs" thing is bullshit, bascially.

Why can people who are unemployed not be required to undertake work they are capable of doing or lose all tax payer support and face other sanctions?

[Albert Tatlock]

Anyone not born here is an immigrant. Anyone.

[Barrie Stevens]

Albert! The problem has always been that an employer cannot be made to hire someone just because they are push forward and offered.

 

If there were to be a system whereby the employer was obliged to take on a suitable worker then neither side could refuse and you would then match jobs with bodies and bodies with jobs and maybe then fill many menial tasks now undertaken by very keen, able and educated migrant workers from afar.

 

In example, the Merchant Navy was once crewed by way of a "pool" of registered labour. I did not experience it myself as I was not in UK shipping but you were in the "pool" and when crew were required you were put in the job a bit like a taxi rank. Of course qualifications were a factor.

 

If the Job Centre sends you for a job and you get an offer and refuse it that may facilitate a stoppage of Benefits...But if you apply for lots of jobs privately and prove it but not seemingly get an offer how can anyone then prove that your Benefits must be stopped?

 

I know some people make sure they are not employed of course. But some employers too have made up their minds to employ an easily exploitable migrant.

 

Until you get compulsion on both sides ie "Here's John. Turn him into a cleaner. Take him on! And you John! Get stuck in or your Dole is stopped. Geddit"

 

Not going to happen and that is why sanctions against those who will not work for low pay on offer never really work. Stopping Benefits of someone with dependents & etc is well nigh impossible and everyone on Benefits knows it! They will not sanction anyone severely who has kids/wife/partner etc

 

At the end of the day it is like the sitcom "Yes Prime Minister" ...."Really Prime Minister. A country has as much unemployment as it is willing to pay for!"...

 

The only real solution is government labouring jobs like they used to do. ie railways, shifting rocks, etc or the old Workhouse discrimination between the Deserving Poor and the Underserving Poor...The former got often pointless labouring jobs to do and as a result many did not claim their "benefits"

 

I am not sure it would be even lawful to force employers to take on the registered unemployed although hiring people as employees in the public sector so as to reduce unemployment was such a process in disguise for many decades....Hence the long term fiscal and pensions issues.

[Barrie Stevens]

In the above I meant the Underserving Poor got pointless labouring jobs!

[woolley]

I think that this whole idea of making funds available to magically and artificially introduce an additional 15,000 workers and families is fraught with difficulty and danger. It isn't a miracle cure. For one thing, it seems that the figure has been arrived at by nothing more scientific than looking at our costs and deciding how many people we need to fund them. A simple calculation according to Jane Dellar. For another, it looks as though someone thinks another 90s style boom can be engineered for a similar result in growth. They apparently still believe they made the earlier boom happen solely through their policies. In fact, although the regulatory framework, incentives and taxation regime were tweaked to facilitate the finance sector and other niches, the good times happened chiefly because global finance grew so much at the time and we were there with the right proposition to gather in the harvest. It happened to us rather than we made it happen. So now we hope to repeat the trick at a time when there is no obvious "next big thing" on the horizon. I think it is dangerous because it could give illusory comfort in the short term that may detract from the cost cutting that so obviously needs to take place. As Chris Robertshaw mentioned, the latest missives from on high seem to be talking about "smarter government" and the word "smaller" has mysteriously vanished.

[Lagman]

Has everyone forgotten how the influx from the Philippines came about?

 

A local care home was unable to recruit staff for these low status low paid jobs and so they began a process of firstly proving same to IOM Govt/Work Permits so jobs were heavily advertised locally and the results shown as proof...

 

Secondly, they tried to recruit in the UK and the results shown...Thirdly, they tried to recruit in the EU and again the results were shown.

 

There then followed three stages of application to recruit outside of the Island/UK/EU..This involved getting the agreement of IOM Govt. Getting approval of EU via the UK Govt. I think the matter had to go up to the European Commission and of course this involves the Island as employment and work permits is covered by the relationship with "Europe" under Protocol 3.

 

Finally, they were given permission to recruit free of the usual IOM/UK/EU obligations...But still they could not discriminate and even though they recruited in the Philippines they advertised on the Island and we saw these adverts in the "Examiner" some written in a totally foreign language.

 

These foreign language ads were for care staff written in the language of the Philippines.

 

The fact that such a long process was entered into would seem to prove the sheer impossibility of getting recruits on the Island. What a procedure they had to go through!

 

I worked with people from the Philippines and they could believe their luck! The wages in their home land would not cover a few ales in a Manx pub.

 

One man I worked with at the Villa Marina was there as a cleaner. He was on £10 an hour working for IOM Govt effectively. I was on £6.50 an hour as a night watchman. He and his wife on the Island had saved about £70,000 working all hours and living in a commune. His previous job was as a soldier in Philippine special forces on £40 a month taking on insurgents in Mindanao where he came from. Working on the IOM gave him a paid for house and two patches of land to grow rice and back home he was seen as very wealthy..

 

Both he and his wife took every chance to learn English and where possible learn more at the College. So far as I know they had two children born on the Island.

 

The fact that such a procedure had to be gone through to get care staff shows that basically not many people want these jobs. It was not easy to get there.

 

Since then of course the Island along with the UK has entered into a limited reciprocal Social Security agreement with the Philippines. Not as good as the one with the UK but there it is! You can see it on line or could at one time anyway.

 

Matters have gone too far now in many other respects so as to be changed by a "jobs for the Manx send 'em back home attitude"

What you say is likely true, I also don't really have a problem with the Filipino med workers (lots of them, and they don't cause trouble) but how much of that has to do with the government luring more and more old people here to live over the years (even though we kept pointing out this was a bad idea in the long term as they would need more and more people to look after them).

[woolley]

And everyone gets old (if they're lucky). What when the latest projected influx get to that stage?

[Lagman]

I think that this whole idea of making funds available to magically and artificially introduce an additional 15,000 workers and families is fraught with difficulty and danger. It isn't a miracle cure. For one thing, it seems that the figure has been arrived at by nothing more scientific than looking at our costs and deciding how many people we need to fund them. A simple calculation according to Jane Dellar. For another, it looks as though someone thinks another 90s style boom can be engineered for a similar result in growth. They apparently still believe they made the earlier boom happen solely through their policies. In fact, although the regulatory framework, incentives and taxation regime were tweaked to facilitate the finance sector and other niches, the good times happened chiefly because global finance grew so much at the time and we were there with the right proposition to gather in the harvest. It happened to us rather than we made it happen. So now we hope to repeat the trick at a time when there is no obvious "next big thing" on the horizon. I think it is dangerous because it could give illusory comfort in the short term that may detract from the cost cutting that so obviously needs to take place. As Chris Robertshaw mentioned, the latest missives from on high seem to be talking about "smarter government" and the word "smaller" has mysteriously vanished.

Exactly this. different times and I just knew they would bring up the TT as an example of handling extra people, what they fail to understand is we would have thousands of extra people and the TT on top of that (police and the hospital are stretched to the limit as it is for the TT) they would also be ramming the schools (so quality would drop).

[Lagman]

 

@ Amadeus: Maybe because nobody wants to work as a fucking taxi driver? You can't force people, you know. Christ sake...

 

 

 

 

OK, so it's acceptable to refuse work that is available and live on other people who are working for no other reason than you don't want to do it? Tough shit. What happened to pride, dignity and shame? I don't want to pay for able bodied people to sit on their arses and do nothing.

 

Huh? That's not what I meant. Someone pointed out all the immigrants who apparently have the audacity to drive taxis on the island. My point was that if you suddenly banned all of them from driving cabs, 'locals' probably wouldn't race to fill those jobs as they wouldn't want to do that type of work, and you can't force them to do it. The whole "evil immigrants take poor manxies jobs" thing is bullshit, bascially.

 

As is the whole lazy locals and the locals don't want the job thing touted here and in the UK - also bullshit.

A lot of these jobs get undercut so making them untenable to the local populace.

[Lagman]

Fact is if all "immigarnts" leave the isle tomorrow, the place will collapse.

 

Positions taken by all those horrible smelly immigrants were open to anyone, but either no Manxies were able or willing to fill them. That's called a free market, which is skewed already in favor of locals. How much more help would you like? Minimum wage and other laws are there to prevent abuse. Then it's down to the individuals to make something out of it or to just sit there and complain. Maybe those smelly immigrants simply have more motivation and a better work ethic to do something and better themselves.

 

The job center site currently lists 846 vacancies. Anyone who wants to fiond a job can do so:

 

https://www.gov.im/ded/jobcentre/searchResults.aspx?areaID=null&classID=null&searchTxt=null&dates=all&FT_PT=null&SearchName=&SavedSearchID=

 

As for the original point, health and social work is tough, backbreaking work with long hours and positions are always hard to fill. Makes sense to make this easier. The primary consideration must be what is best for the patients and vulnerable people who require the skills provided by health and social workers, and towards whom the government has a duty of care, not what's best for jobless Billy Quayle down in Peel.

Can we not even discuss these things without someone screaming witch?