Heart goes out to France

[The Border Terrier]

It is a war. They might have used the term lightly in the early days, but now it is gathering pace and intensity. It's a problem with no obvious solution. At the beginning of WW2 they interned German and Italian citizens and potentially Nazi sympathisers. We don't have camps big enough to accommodate potential Islamic fundamentalists. Need for constant vigilance and expectation of atrocities is sadly the scenario we have fashioned for ourselves.

 

>Need for constant vigilance and expectation of atrocities is sadly the scenario we have fashioned for ourselves.

 

I'm due to visit consultant orthopaedic surgeon Mr Aslam Mohammed a week Wednesday, regarding a follow up appointment post femoral acetabular surgery in 09/15.

 

Would you suggest I postpone the trip until Mr Mohammed's credentials are validated as being non-IS supporting?

 

Similarly, the referring consultant was Mr Hassan Ridha of Nobles orthopaedic ward 12.

 

TBT.

[woolley]

 

It is a war. They might have used the term lightly in the early days, but now it is gathering pace and intensity. It's a problem with no obvious solution. At the beginning of WW2 they interned German and Italian citizens and potentially Nazi sympathisers. We don't have camps big enough to accommodate potential Islamic fundamentalists. Need for constant vigilance and expectation of atrocities is sadly the scenario we have fashioned for ourselves.

 

>Need for constant vigilance and expectation of atrocities is sadly the scenario we have fashioned for ourselves.

 

I'm due to visit consultant orthopaedic surgeon Mr Aslam Mohammed a week Wednesday, regarding a follow up appointment post femoral acetabular surgery in 09/15.

 

Would you suggest I postpone the trip until Mr Mohammed's credentials are validated as being non-IS supporting?

 

Similarly, the referring consultant was Mr Hassan Ridha of Nobles orthopaedic ward 12.

 

TBT.

 

No. Of course not. I'm sure you'll be fine. Individuals usually are lovely on a one to one basis. It's when you transplant large populations from one area of the world to another, and expect them to live peacefully in one society that you get problems. We are now seeing the evidence that multicuturalism is a failed experiment as has been tacitly acknowledged by governments that previously espoused it.

[woolley]

 

Now would be a great time to return all migrants to Syria telling them they are heading back because no one can be trusted. Should be enough to make them rise up and fight a war they should already be fighting.

 

To return all the refugees would be a bad move and only entrench hostilities. The answer to this is to empower the moderate muslims - we're constantly being told that's the vast majority of them - to police their own, and in return the West will provide a safe haven for people prepared to assimilate in their host countries. But the onus must be on THEM to adapt if they want to settle in the West.

 

Well, until they are in the majority at least.

[Chinahand]

Whilst last nights events are extraordinarily shit please remember that last month the supposed good guys spent an hour bombing a fucking hospital.

... the issue is motivation. I do not believe any of the people in the chain of command would have wanted to attack a hospital, to kill and injure doctors and nurses. The Geneva conventions are very clear on the status of hospitals and medical personnel.

 

There was a command & control break down, and a tragic error occurred - and that is being investigated by the UN, NATO and the US Military to see if there was a crime or negligence involved - when crimes have been committed there are prosecutions from Mi Lai, to Abu Ghrab to Nisour Square - we know about these things because they were investigated and prosecuted - compare that to what happens in ISIS prisons & town squares.

 

The US and UK militaries attempt under the hugely difficult circumstances of war to reduce civilian deaths and prosecute soldiers who fail to do that. There are multiple failures in that and justice is too often a casualty of war, but even so the motivation is there to try to reduce civilian deaths.

 

ISIS are motivated to kill civilians, it is their aim and objective.

 

I find it amazing when people time and time again see some moral equivalence between war and terrorism.

 

The motivations involved are totally different.

[guzzi]

I don't really think Woolley sees internment of Muslims as a possibility ruled out only by practical difficulties and 'political correctness'. Leaving aside the point that it would abandon all decent morality, can anyone imagine the jeopardy the remaining section of British society would be placed in? Kidnapping, hijacking and murder, in pursuit of demands for release. Selective internment by judicial tribunal proved singularly unsuccessful in N Ireland.

 

We need to do all we can to foster decent, moderate interpretations of Islam from within the Moslem community, building on the work of the likes of the Quilliam Foundation. Biometric id would be prudent, and all those entering and leaving the UK should be positively identified, as they are in the US. Genuine refugees should be accepted, but subject to strict background checks. If those checks can't be made, and it is nevertheless felt appropriate to offer asylum, geo-tagging and intrusive surveillance ought to apply.

[woolley]

You are right, Guzzi. I don't see it as a realistic option. The damage was done long ago and is irreversible. I was using it to illustrate how limited our options are, and I'm not optimistic. What a legacy we have contrived for future generations. But then we've done it to death over the years.

[woolley]

 

Whilst last nights events are extraordinarily shit please remember that last month the supposed good guys spent an hour bombing a fucking hospital.

 

I find it amazing when people time and time again see some moral equivalence between war and terrorism.

 

The motivations involved are totally different.

 

It does make you wonder what the apologists who seek to justify these acts are thinking of.

[Chinahand]

 

... the onus must be on THEM to adapt if they want to settle in the West.

 

Well, until they are in the majority at least.

 

You go on about this a lot, Woolley. You do realize it is basically demographically impossible.

 

If you said a politically important demographic - 25% or so, then that is worth talking about, but it is just silly to discuss events based on unjustifiable straight line projections over 100s of years.

 

They are meaningless to rational political decision making.

 

Muslims are a tiny minority at the moment and will only become a politically important demographic in something like 100 years assuming zero integration or assimilation and unchanging birth rates etc.

 

It is totally unrealistic.

 

There is a data out there showing decreasing religiosity amongst the UK's Muslim population and increasing integration, but your rhetoric implies quite the opposite. It isn't evidence based.

 

Certainly there are enclaves in the UK where Islam is intolerant and pervasive, but those areas have to be put into the perspective of the population as a whole and the social environments of those communities examined. They are not static - and in fact can be quite fascinating in their social dynamism. Think more Brick Lane, London, than your worst cliche of a Midland or Yorkshire enclave.

[quilp]

 

 

Now would be a great time to return all migrants to Syria telling them they are heading back because no one can be trusted. Should be enough to make them rise up and fight a war they should already be fighting.

 

To return all the refugees would be a bad move and only entrench hostilities. The answer to this is to empower the moderate muslims - we're constantly being told that's the vast majority of them - to police their own, and in return the West will provide a safe haven for people prepared to assimilate in their host countries. But the onus must be on THEM to adapt if they want to settle in the West.

 

Well, until they are in the majority at least.

 

 

 

''Moderate muslim''. Can anyone tell what this constitutes?

 

Do they attend special mosques? Eat the occasional bacon sarnie? Drink the occasional pint? Get a little high during ramadan?

 

This term serve the multicultural dhimmi's who vainly believe that such a distinction exists.

[Chinahand]

There are huge numbers of people with a Muslim background who simply do not think their religion is that important. They fit it into the tolerant society they live in and have a private faith of Mosque and community cohesion at Ramadan etc, little different to the way people of a Christian background may know the hymns and go to the midnight service at Xmas.

 

It is nuttiness to pretend these people are closet jihadis. they are moderate Muslims who when confronted with the contradictions inherent in any religion, take the easy way out and via cognitive dissonance ignore the parts of their religion which is incompatible with the society they live in.

 

They no more want some fundamentalist to enforce strict sharia on them than anyone else. That is far more the reality of Muslim Britain than the zealot saying this is the Dar al-Harab.

[The Border Terrier]

 

Whilst last nights events are extraordinarily shit please remember that last month the supposed good guys spent an hour bombing a fucking hospital.

... the issue is motivation. I do not believe any of the people in the chain of command would have wanted to attack a hospital, to kill and injure doctors and nurses. The Geneva conventions are very clear on the status of hospitals and medical personnel.

 

There was a command & control break down, and a tragic error occurred - and that is being investigated by the UN, NATO and the US Military to see if there was a crime or negligence involved - when crimes have been committed there are prosecutions from Mi Lai, to Abu Ghrab to Nisour Square - we know about these things because they were investigated and prosecuted - compare that to what happens in ISIS prisons & town squares.

 

The US and UK militaries attempt under the hugely difficult circumstances of war to reduce civilian deaths and prosecute soldiers who fail to do that. There are multiple failures in that and justice is too often a casualty of war, but even so the motivation is there to try to reduce civilian deaths.

 

ISIS are motivated to kill civilians, it is their aim and objective.

 

I find it amazing when people time and time again see some moral equivalence between war and terrorism.

 

The motivations involved are totally different.

 

 

>The US and UK militaries attempt under the hugely difficult circumstances of war to reduce civilian deaths and prosecute soldiers who fail to do that.

 

I'm not a Muslim, and even I don't believe that.

 

Of the 800+ cruise missiles fired at Baghdad in the first 2 days of the 2003 war, colateral damage involving civilians must have been:-

 

1) Inevitable with considerably more than 128 fatalities.

2) Avoidable.

 

The facts that frustrate some include:-

 

1) Iraq had a plentiful supply of oil that the UK/US wanted to control.

2) Iraq had the ability to pay for reparation of any damage caused by the Coalition forces, so there was a profit motive to indescriminately ruin Iraq.

3) Nonsensical justification for the war by means of insisting there was a threat via WMD, when their own inspectors told them that there wasn't.

 

Now if that doesn't motivate an infinitesimally small number of Muslin extremists to create mayhem, then I don't know what would.

 

So best Cameron doesn't get too indignant when the radicals fight back. I mean, most extremists aren't fighting for a cause, they're just fighting; so what better excuse than to cite the Coalitions actions as justification.

 

I'm tempted to say that as the UK Parliament, and cohorts, got us into this mess, so they should bloody well get us out of it.

 

But in reality that just isn't feasible.

 

So Cameron should stop playing to the gallery, and accept that his current actions are counter productive.

 

TBT.

[quilp]

 

It is nuttiness to pretend these people are closet jihadis. they are moderate Muslims ...

 

Yes, but then all it takes is the spark of faith ...

 

http://www.formermuslimsunited.org/exposing-the-myth-of-moderate-islam/

[malebrain]

 

 

Now would be a great time to return all migrants to Syria telling them they are heading back because no one can be trusted. Should be enough to make them rise up and fight a war they should already be fighting.

 

To return all the refugees would be a bad move and only entrench hostilities. The answer to this is to empower the moderate muslims - we're constantly being told that's the vast majority of them - to police their own, and in return the West will provide a safe haven for people prepared to assimilate in their host countries. But the onus must be on THEM to adapt if they want to settle in the West.

Well, until they are in the majority at least.

The BBC has confirmed that one of the terrorists was a migrant from Syria who had migrated in October. Think it's time to shut the doors.

[Merkin]

Poor poor families must be in pieces right now.

[woolley]

@ Chinahand. We have a big enough problem to be concerned about. Discount no possibility.