Heart goes out to France

[the stinking enigma]

lest we forget

[guzzi]

I ought to have been more explicit, Sheight. I was referring you to the word mistaken in the post of mine that you quoted, as it seemed as if you must have missed it.

[woolley]

 

Adjectives, Sheight! 'Mistaken' is the relevant one in this instance.

Whatever. I don't care what other people think. The spectacle of 150 people being murdered in cold blood simply disgusts me. But our governments behaviour in all of this requires scrutiny as, sadly, these events will not stop happening in European cities until we start attacking the right bogey men rather than creatng strategic wars which are solely about oil and global influence.

 

They won't stop at all. This is a struggle between secular society and religious zealots. It's been coming and it won't stop now.

[ans]

The fact that these scattered attacks went unnoticed by security spooks is very worrying. Why wasn't there a hint of communication traffic between these murderers?

 

Because they don't use Gmail to send each other sekrit_terrorism_plans.docx.

 

The terrorists are much smarter than they used to be and much more informed about the ways security services monitor traffic. The best intelligence agency in the world is not going to find a way to find out what a bunch of clean skin terrorists are up to who only ever meet face to face and don't use any form of electronic communication.

 

Security services rely on terrorists making mistakes. I'm not being glib with my first sentence, you can't stop a determined and well organised group from carrying out something like this.

[The Border Terrier]

TBT, I wouldn't link the killing of Mohammid Emwazi to the Paris attacks. It's already been pointed out that the attacks were complex, and must have required considerable planning. It is also now being reported that the concert hall attackers launched into a diatribe about French involvement in Syria after proclaiming the Takbir and before opening fire.

 

The killing of Emwazi might motivate some who are already on the road to radicalisation, but it might well deter the more naive by upping the ante beyond the level they are prepared to risk.

 

>I wouldn't link the killing of Mohammid Emwazi to the Paris attacks.

 

Just for the record, I haven't accepted that Emwazi (if that's JJ's real name) has been killed yet.

 

>The killing of Emwazi might motivate some who are already on the road to radicalisation, but it might well deter the more naive by upping the ante beyond the level they are prepared to risk.

 

Cameron said that 'The West' had been killing ISIS 'top brass' at the rate of 2 a week since May; and that Emwazi might be one of those exterminated.

 

So yes, I'd hazard a guess that ISIL have changed tactics and gone for mainland Europe as their next target, they've been pretty effective too. It's generated far more publicity than any atrocities in the Middle East. And equally importantly for the Paris/French/Worldwide tourism industry, that's taken a hit into the bargain! And £'s more than anything really talks in this business.

 

The attack was well co-ordinated, well disciplined, well armed and all to the point of the perps giving their own lives for the cause. A sense of foreboding ensues.

 

Might be time to suggest Cameron lies low for a while, he's exacerbating the problem.

 

TBT.

[thommo2010]

 

ok right you are sultan

up to 150 people are dead and all you can do is blame Blair and bush. terrorist attacks were happening long before the war on terror began. how about blaming the scum responsible for this

I don't have any problem with what I said. Why do you think they hate the west? Because of scum like Blair and Bush. Why do you think they are killing people in football stadiums and restaurants? Because our governments are have killed and are killing their people in football stadiums and restaurants. It is not difficult to work out what the cause of the resentment is. I'm not sympathising with them, I'm not saying they aren't murderers who need to be irradicated but our fucking governments created this power keg by starting false wars in foreign countries and disposing dictators who were the only people keeping their countries together. Blair should be tried by the War Crimes Commission for his role in all of this. He is a piece of shit. No better or worse than any of the pieces of shit who did the attack yesterday.

 

 

They hate the west because of our beliefs and they want to exterminate us and dominate us, it has nothing to do with Blair and Bush. Remember in January a load of people were killed at a newspaper for drawing a cartoon of their prophet. At the time people were wanting to get the likes of Saddam out of power had social media been around 12 years ago and you turned round and said he is doing a great job you would get called all sorts. Hidsight is a wonderful thing but don't fool yourself with or without those wars these scum would still be out planning their atrocities.

[ballaughbiker]

If Cameron is to blame in any way, why Paris?

[guzzi]

TBT.

 

Yes, I should have said 'purported' killing'. Emwazi was important to ISIS because of his evident brutality and his British accent, I don't think he was in any way 'top brass' in the sense of being part of the leadership. I take the claims about degrading their command structure with a pinch of salt. Politically, Cameron might be better advised to pipe down, but more because his claims might be proved false by subsequent events than because he is somehow provoking ISIS. I think ISIS will attack Britain, Russia, the US et. al. whenever and wherever they can, and will also relentlessly try to overthrow the regimes in Syria, Iraq, and the whole region.

 

It is worth remembering that in Indochina, the US lost because public opinion became sickened by the war, making it politically impossible to pursue anything except 'vietnamisation' of the war. ISIS calculate that public opinion will be changed to the extent where the governments of the countries that are intervening in Iraq and Syria will have to walk away and leave them to occupy the region and create their 'caliphate'. Unlike Vietnam, the prospect that they will walk through the region is completely plausible.

[alibaba]

Whilst last nights events are extraordinarily shit please remember that last month the supposed good guys spent an hour bombing a fucking hospital.

[the stinking enigma]

And strafed the escaping survivors

[woolley]

It is a war. They might have used the term lightly in the early days, but now it is gathering pace and intensity. It's a problem with no obvious solution. At the beginning of WW2 they interned German and Italian citizens and potentially Nazi sympathisers. We don't have camps big enough to accommodate potential Islamic fundamentalists. Need for constant vigilance and expectation of atrocities is sadly the scenario we have fashioned for ourselves.

[guzzi]

It is a war. They might have used the term lightly in the early days, but now it is gathering pace and intensity. It's a problem with no obvious solution. At the beginning of WW2 they interned German and Italian citizens and potentially Nazi sympathisers. We don't have camps big enough to accommodate potential Islamic fundamentalists. Need for constant vigilance and expectation of atrocities is sadly the scenario we have fashioned for ourselves.

 

 

..... well, maybe the Isle of Man? Like last time? But which citizens would you intern?

[the stinking enigma]

No chance, the prom is in no fit state to handle that number. Plus I have just got used to the Manx show being at knockaloe

[woolley]

 

It is a war. They might have used the term lightly in the early days, but now it is gathering pace and intensity. It's a problem with no obvious solution. At the beginning of WW2 they interned German and Italian citizens and potentially Nazi sympathisers. We don't have camps big enough to accommodate potential Islamic fundamentalists. Need for constant vigilance and expectation of atrocities is sadly the scenario we have fashioned for ourselves.

 

 

..... well, maybe the Isle of Man? Like last time? But which citizens would you intern?

 

That's the point I am making. Analogous to Churchill's 1940 "collar the lot" order, all Muslims would be subject. But that could not ever be done because of the sheer scale of the exercise. For one thing it wouldn't be politically correct. Neither was Churchill's edict, but they didn't worry about things like that in those times and even German Jews were rounded up. For another thing, besides the numbers being unmanageable they would be fighting among themselves. Finally, this is not a symmetrical military invasion, but something much more nebulous constantly creeping in. More are arriving all the time, so we are actually moving in the opposite direction in terms of the masses of people in the European population who would be hostile to our way of life, or at least ambivalent on the subject.

[Stu Peters]

Now would be a great time to return all migrants to Syria telling them they are heading back because no one can be trusted. Should be enough to make them rise up and fight a war they should already be fighting.

 

To return all the refugees would be a bad move and only entrench hostilities. The answer to this is to empower the moderate muslims - we're constantly being told that's the vast majority of them - to police their own, and in return the West will provide a safe haven for people prepared to assimilate in their host countries. But the onus must be on THEM to adapt if they want to settle in the West.