joeyconcrete Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Can I just add my opinion to the masses that this move is utter stupidity. Dunno who Skelly has been listening to, although given some of the wording in the press release I can guess, but he has just told every substantial employer on the island that it's OK not to train and <....> This policy is just more short term stupidity from DED and the people who lead it. I think that is a little harsh. I have sat in on several discussions and debates around this subject, and the view was fairly unanimous. This is not a small group of individuals but a significant collective from a diverse background. In all cases, there was still a acknowledgement where work-permits help, and their benefit, but businesses are struggling. From my experience, this was not a DED knee-jerk reaction, but a case of them getting lobbied from a range of businesses - large and small. That aside. From my own experience, it is very difficult to hire quality ICT staff locally, and that extends to talented (inexperienced) youngsters. I think in the past year, we have hired eight ICT professionals and (fortunately) all on-island, but that came at a price. In many cases, their former employers will have the same problem, struggling to hire staff to fill that gap left by their departure. This finite labour pool pushes up wages, which has to be recouped in the normal course of business. You then consider the "big" E-Gaming players where wages are less of an issue, many ICT people gravitate that way... This often over-inflates their expectations of salaries in the "real world". We also employ three juniors who are undergoing training, after leaving college or school. To illustrate a point, my main network/security guy has been with me since leaving college, after five years - he is highly skilled, and highly valued. That process has taken five years to gain the level of experience, competence and certifications. That is a long-time in business. I agree the long-term strategy is to develop talent locally, but the problem we face is a short-term problem. Without over dramatising the issue, I have opportunities that I could lose to UK competitors if I didn't have the staff to fulfil the requirements of the proposed business engagement. I know my programmers can be useful in 2+ years, but right now, I have a problem. I can't hire competent staff locally, through agencies or other means. You see the same CVs and the same people. The UK (or other) would be my last resort, and for many others, notwithstanding the hassle, relocation costs, risk of them not liking the Island and everything else - you have a work permit to compete with. That process takes time, and effort, and the opportunity can be lost. I have a less cynical view than many others. Most business owners that I know have some form of social-responsibility towards the Isle of Man and its youth. They will always try to recruit and train locally where possible, however the commercial reality is that is not always possible. Granted, many don't give a toss and will bypass the local labour pool, but you could argue they would do that anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweek Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 At least our youngsters will get to work with and learn alongside all these cheap Indian IT guys that will arrive. Surely there's got to be a few waiter jobs serving them at the 3 Indians that will open? Most jobs will be replaced over the next 20 years by robots & algorithms Hmmm...Don't mind the robots, but the Algorythms worry me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Can I just add my opinion to the masses that this move is utter stupidity. Dunno who Skelly has been listening to, although given some of the wording in the press release I can guess, but he has just told every substantial employer on the island that it's OK not to train and <....> This policy is just more short term stupidity from DED and the people who lead it. I think that is a little harsh. I have sat in on several discussions and debates around this subject, and the view was fairly unanimous. This is not a small group of individuals but a significant collective from a diverse background. In all cases, there was still a acknowledgement where work-permits help, and their benefit, but businesses are struggling. From my experience, this was not a DED knee-jerk reaction, but a case of them getting lobbied from a range of businesses - large and small. That aside. From my own experience, it is very difficult to hire quality ICT staff locally, and that extends to talented (inexperienced) youngsters. I think in the past year, we have hired eight ICT professionals and (fortunately) all on-island, but that came at a price. In many cases, their former employers will have the same problem, struggling to hire staff to fill that gap left by their departure. This finite labour pool pushes up wages, which has to be recouped in the normal course of business. You then consider the "big" E-Gaming players where wages are less of an issue, many ICT people gravitate that way... This often over-inflates their expectations of salaries in the "real world". We also employ three juniors who are undergoing training, after leaving college or school. To illustrate a point, my main network/security guy has been with me since leaving college, after five years - he is highly skilled, and highly valued. That process has taken five years to gain the level of experience, competence and certifications. That is a long-time in business. I agree the long-term strategy is to develop talent locally, but the problem we face is a short-term problem. Without over dramatising the issue, I have opportunities that I could lose to UK competitors if I didn't have the staff to fulfil the requirements of the proposed business engagement. I know my programmers can be useful in 2+ years, but right now, I have a problem. I can't hire competent staff locally, through agencies or other means. You see the same CVs and the same people. The UK (or other) would be my last resort, and for many others, notwithstanding the hassle, relocation costs, risk of them not liking the Island and everything else - you have a work permit to compete with. That process takes time, and effort, and the opportunity can be lost. I have a less cynical view than many others. Most business owners that I know have some form of social-responsibility towards the Isle of Man and its youth. They will always try to recruit and train locally where possible, however the commercial reality is that is not always possible. Granted, many don't give a toss and will bypass the local labour pool, but you could argue they would do that anyway... Island has to have a 'Tech First' development policy with full educational support for our brightest youngsters to creating a thrusting digital economy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyconcrete Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Totally agree. It's also worth noting that at least three students I employed never returned to the Island. Not because of a lack of opportunities or wages, but because they didn't want to. One works for Citrix and the other two for the UK public sector. There is no single solution, so I don't envy DED. The best approach is to train and educate youngsters, and bolster the active workforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craggy_steve Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Can I just add my opinion to the masses that this move is utter stupidity. Dunno who Skelly has been listening to, although given some of the wording in the press release I can guess, but he has just told every substantial employer on the island that it's OK not to train and <....> This policy is just more short term stupidity from DED and the people who lead it. I think that is a little harsh. I have sat in on several discussions and debates around this subject, and the view was fairly unanimous. This is not a small group of individuals but a significant collective from a diverse background. In all cases, there was still a acknowledgement where work-permits help, and their benefit, but businesses are struggling. From my experience, this was not a DED knee-jerk reaction, but a case of them getting lobbied from a range of businesses - large and small.... I don't deny the problem, but I think this is the wrong solution. I think the right solution is a guaranteed 2 day turnaround on critical industry work permits, automatic 5 year permits, and automatic permit grant if the employer can show they have advertised for 2 weeks with no suitable responses - under the current rules. 2 days is not a lot of uncertainty, and the current rules require consideration of candidates who can reasonably be expected to be able to do the job within a reasonable period of time thereby preventing the over-specification gambit used by many employers to avoid their employee development responsibilities. Obviously as the current rules aren't often applied anyway the whole matter of work permits and candidate suitability is a bit of a farce. The biggest issue is that "ordinary" employers are competing with a few rich (gaming) companies who will pay a premium on salaries and offer better and more enlightened working conditions, and they don't like it. E-gaming aside local ICT pay does not generally compare well with across for the quality it seeks, certainly looking at the job ads it is less now than I was paying 10 years ago in Yorkshire yet often demanding more specific skills. I think the solution to employer struggles lies in a reliable fast work permit process combined with the chequebook and greater development of in-house talent instead of expecting to hire ICT staff as a commodity. To rub that home, despite employer claims of ICT skills shortages a lot of talent has left the island in the few years I've been here and despite being locally unemployable has miraculously walked straight into, and held down, good jobs in the UK. Lost count of the number of IoM techies who didn't want to leave the island but had to go to the UK for work because IoM employers judged them unsuitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Every Manx person knows the benefit of working off island for a bit The training/education schemes have to include a couple of years work experience elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Totally agree. It's also worth noting that at least three students I employed never returned to the Island. Not because of a lack of opportunities or wages, but because they didn't want to. One works for Citrix and the other two for the UK public sector. There is no single solution, so I don't envy DED. The best approach is to train and educate youngsters, and bolster the active workforce. The reality is that every new resident is a new taxpayer and a new source of revenue for local shops and retailers so having no restrictions is fine by me. The more who come means more who contribute to taxes. That said you really do have to wonder whether we have strategically missed a trick if we don't have people with the right skills leaving school or university. Up until last year all university degrees were funded by the taxpayer so what degrees or courses are these people doing? Also we've had significant investments into the IBS, and the college of FE. Are all these people on hairdressing courses if nobody is leaving higher education with any suitable ICT accreditations? It was also mentioned somewhere else that 25% of our workers are apparently completely unqualified and that is a huge number of people (based on a working population of about 40,000 that's 10,000 people with nothing by way of qualifications). So why, after we are said to have such a good school system, do so many people in the workplace seem to have no qualifications to fall back on at all? It seems a completely crazy situation to be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somewhatdamaged Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Remember, that choosing to hire externally, or from the IOM is also dependant on the attitude / personality of the applicant as well, not just his / her qualifications I work in e-gaming, and we have had local applicants, who although have the qualifications / skills to do the job, they are so overwhelmingly arrogant and self obsessed, that they quite simply wouldn't be a good fit in the company / culture so they don't get the job, and we have to either bring someone over from the UK or further afield who has that team player / knowledge sharing mentality. The Island has quite a few of the formers unfortunately Cultural fit is just as important as the qualifications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shake me up Judy Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 What's cultural fit then ? What is the company culture in e-gaming ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somewhatdamaged Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Willingness to share knowledge, work early / late as and when required, sense of humour (self deprecating helps!), put forward ideas to improve existing processes rather than just doing something "cause thats the way it's always been done", not moaning, bitching, thinking what can be done to improve the team as a whole rather than just yourself We had a lad interview, and all he talked about was how amazing he was, how he's super important, people only come to work cause of him, how he can learn anything bla bla bla Did not get the job, would that be the kind of person you want to bring into your company? I've seen a few of them unfortunately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee Cee Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Presumably some Islanders are at a disadvantage because they are 'known' to the prospective employer. The Island is a small place, and if you were not sat next to the candidate at school, then you probably know someone who was. So however unfair the civil liberties brigade think it is, there will always be 'discrimination' against some candidates just because of who they are. So come on kids - there's a lesson here. Make sure that you are always nice to all the other kids, because you never know which one will be interviewing you for a job in years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 What's cultural fit then ? What is the company culture in e-gaming ? SWD is right in that qualifications arent everything. Cultural fit is basically that you can have the right qualifications etc; but can be viewed as a bad fit with the company. If performance relies on team delivery you need someone who can add to the team and work in a collegiate and structured way. Also companies will often prefer to recruit people whose values and behaviour align with the values and behaviours of the business owners and the board etc. So some arrogant little git who thinks he's the next Steve Jobs is a big risk even if he is well qualified to do the job. There are also a good few who aren't prepared to go the extra distance in terms of extra hours, overtime, travel, and continuous development because they think they don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 We had a lad interview, and all he talked about was how amazing he was, how he's super important, people only come to work cause of him, how he can learn anything bla bla bla You wonder how much of this sort of nonsense is due to programmes such as The Apprentice and the belief that this sort of relentless self-promotion is the way that people are actually supposed to behave in business. Maybe next time you should ask the interviewee if they really believe this bullshit and, if they get offended, you know that they're doomed. Alternatively it could be that this sort of bloviating genuinely is the way to get on in modern organisations. In which case we're all doomed. Of course egoless programming has been around since the 60s, and it seems odd that people would be unaware of how it operates and (more important) the attitudes it embodies, but maybe acting the part has become more important that producing stuff that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 Christ, the attitude of some youngsters is worrying - perhaps they should all be sent to boot camp in New Zealand for 2 years Dare I be sexist and ask if the female of the species has a better attitude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 The elephant in the room here is not work permit legislation but attracting skilled young people to the island to live. We are a far less vibrant place than we were fifteen or more years ago and unless you are the outdoors type you will find it difficult to settle here for any length of time. I have found this over the past few years with difficulty in local recruitment leading to arranging interviews with off island candidates, who cite being unable to live here as a reason for turning the job down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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