People In ICT And e-business Won’t Need Work Permits

[Butterflies]

 

 

If we haven't got the people with the right skills, then the company will be able to apply for a work permit, what's the problem? Why bring in a system that allows companies to overlook suitably experienced or qualified workers from the IOM workers pool and bring in new people? Just for one sector?

 

 

The reality is the skills required are not available on the island but employers have a significant overhead in going through the work permit process, its not as simple as applying for one, you need to prove there are no suitable candidates on the island. Fair enough you might think but the rules of the Job Seekers Allowance program mean that everyone claiming JSA must apply for 2 jobs every week. so, the reality is that for any role an employer gets lots of applications from those on JSA who are totally unsuitable but are Manx workers so, before applying to get a work permit they need to rule out each and every applicant with documented evidence as to why. Even then, in some cases, they may be called to appear before the work permit committee in person to argue their case.

 

All this takes time and commitment from the employer and delays the process to the point that suitable candidates from off island often choose to take up another offer elsewhere. Some employers will simply save themselves the effort and 'off shore' the work which certainly does not help the IOM economy.

 

 

That isn't anywhere near a compelling argument to drop work permit requirements for a certain sector though. The same argument applies to every employer. The minute something like this is adapted for one sector, the next minute all the other sectors want it to be adapted for them too. And who could blame them?

 

Again, we are talking about jobs with a salary of £25k here. That is not a skilled employee with skills no Manx person could possible possess!

[craggy_steve]

Can I just add my opinion to the masses that this move is utter stupidity. Dunno who Skelly has been listening to, although given some of the wording in the press release I can guess, but he has just told every substantial employer on the island that it's OK not to train and develop your IT staff, in fact you can treat them like shit, because IoMG is going to make it cheap and easy to hire any old crap with a 5th-rate degree or 3 years of HTML experience to replace them.

 

We need to develop core skills, not import them. If anything there should be an extra tariff levied on employers hiring junior and mid-level IT staff from off-island as an incentive to invest in developing those who are already here. A _very_ few employers make an effort at developing their own IT talent, but most expect to buy it in whereas they're quite happy to train and develop people "in the business". Or do we somehow miraculously churn fully fledged bankers and insurers straight out of our schools these days?

 

This policy is just more short term stupidity from DED and the people who lead it.

[Mr Shoe]

that it's OK not to train and develop your IT staff, in fact you can treat them like shit, because IoMG is going to make it cheap and easy to hire any old crap with a 5th-rate degree or 3 years of HTML experience to replace them.

 

And not just IT. The 'saviour' that is eGaming has also just been totally undermined (not the owners, just the future staff)

 

Future employment prospects of the next generation will be severely cut.

 

Plus, if you employ a manx person on £25k, then that £25k gets churned round the economy for a while. If you employ, say, an Eastern European on £25k, then a large chunk of that money immediately exits the island forever.

 

Basically, some influential eGaming owner just told Skelly what do to.

[Terminal]

delete from houseofkeys..employees

where first_name='laurence' and surname='skelly'

[oldmanxfella]

 

that it's OK not to train and develop your IT staff, in fact you can treat them like shit, because IoMG is going to make it cheap and easy to hire any old crap with a 5th-rate degree or 3 years of HTML experience to replace them.

 

And not just IT. The 'saviour' that is eGaming has also just been totally undermined (not the owners, just the future staff)

 

Future employment prospects of the next generation will be severely cut.

 

Plus, if you employ a manx person on £25k, then that £25k gets churned round the economy for a while. If you employ, say, an Eastern European on £25k, then a large chunk of that money immediately exits the island forever.

 

Basically, some influential eGaming owner just told Skelly what do to.

They also have similar and more relaxed rules for hospitality and cleaning industries etc. It's a known fact that a huge amount of many of the imported communities wire a large amount of money home. I think you can say that without being racist as its not a reflection on the people or how hard working they are in their jobs. It's a known fact - for the first time we even have a busy money exchange bureau at the bottom of Regent Street so there is clearly a big enough market in these type of transfers to justify an exchange bureau setting up. So a big proportion of the wages paid aren't spent here at all. Yes there's some tax paid, but in terms of domestic spend a lot of the money doesn't even rest here for more than a week or two before it's wired out to family somewhere else to be invested or spent. It doesn't really help the local economy at all at the end of the day compared to a Manx worker who will earn here and spend here.

 

I think we either have permits or we don't. Exempting certain sectors doesn't make sense as it's sort of saying - if you have no skills you will be protected. But if you have an education and qualifications we'll just fast track people in to compete with you so you'll wish that you hadn't bothered getting qualified in the first place.

[Mr Shoe]

insert into ditch

select id from employees where iscomin = 1

go

truncate table MLC

[HeliX]

There are plenty of IT jobs here, in fact Developer positions in particular are currently lacking in applicants. Companies aren't treating foreign talent preferentially, that's complete bollocks.

 

As for not having the ability to gain these skills on the island, also complete bollocks. Online training is a more viable option than ever before. Anyone who genuinely wants to get into the sector can, without having to apply a great deal of effort. If they can't be bothered then they don't deserve the jobs in the first place.

[HeliX]

insert into ditch

select id from employees where iscomin = 1

go

truncate table MLC

With a database structure like that it's no wonder they're giving the jobs to non-locals.

[notwell]

 

 

that it's OK not to train and develop your IT staff, in fact you can treat them like shit, because IoMG is going to make it cheap and easy to hire any old crap with a 5th-rate degree or 3 years of HTML experience to replace them.

And not just IT. The 'saviour' that is eGaming has also just been totally undermined (not the owners, just the future staff)

 

Future employment prospects of the next generation will be severely cut.

 

Plus, if you employ a manx person on £25k, then that £25k gets churned round the economy for a while. If you employ, say, an Eastern European on £25k, then a large chunk of that money immediately exits the island forever.

 

Basically, some influential eGaming owner just told Skelly what do to.

They also have similar and more relaxed rules for hospitality and cleaning industries etc. It's a known fact that a huge amount of many of the imported communities wire a large amount of money home. I think you can say that without being racist as its not a reflection on the people or how hard working they are in their jobs. It's a known fact - for the first time we even have a busy money exchange bureau at the bottom of Regent Street so there is clearly a big enough market in these type of transfers to justify an exchange bureau setting up. So a big proportion of the wages paid aren't spent here at all. Yes there's some tax paid, but in terms of domestic spend a lot of the money doesn't even rest here for more than a week or two before it's wired out to family somewhere else to be invested or spent. It doesn't really help the local economy at all at the end of the day compared to a Manx worker who will earn here and spend here.

 

I think we either have permits or we don't. Exempting certain sectors doesn't make sense as it's sort of saying - if you have no skills you will be protected. But if you have an education and qualifications we'll just fast track people in to compete with you so you'll wish that you hadn't bothered getting qualified in the first place.

 

Yes, but the reality is that we don't have enough "manx" workers to fill all these roles and "keep the money on the island". Rightly or wrongly.

Also, these people don't send THAT much off the island. We all know how much it costs to live here, there's enough fucking complaints about it from us all. There are "local" people here spending significantly more with Amazon on a monthly basis than our foreign workers are sending home in a year and i'd consider that to be equally if not more of an issue.

Also, 20 years ago IT was the place to work in terms of salary. High demand, nominal workforce to meet it. The reality now is that there are a huge amount of people who have trained in IT to a sufficient level where the salary levels have come down. So, for example, it isn't like Accountancy where salary levels remain pretty high and supported because not any old tom, dick or harry can rock up and get involved with what in context is limited training and qualifications.

 

If someone wants to come here and work for £25k year in IT then that says more about the IT world than it does about salaries, the IOM, and recruitment/permit policy. You could create exactly the same thing for Hospital Consultants at £50k and you won't get an influx of those reducing the average wage because they simply don't work for that kind of money.

[2112]

 

No doubt there will be the usual squeals about all this, and about people from across pinching jobs that the locals should get. Sadly this overlooks two rather important points ...

 

1) some of the locals are bone idle and don't want to work

 

2) some of the locals are just not bright enough to be trained to do these jobs

 

I would like to see jobs saved for locals. But at the end of the day, if the locals either will not do the jobs, or are not capable of doing the jobs. then I am happy to see them go to outsiders. It is better that the work is done on the Island, than off it.[/quote

 

Excellent post. The trouble is IOMG have made benefits a right, not a safety net. There are many who should be moved from incap/is to JSA but unfortunately this is being done in a slapdash fashion. JSA are not doing things any differently. The island over the last 10 years has seen benefits as a solution not the problem. It is now being cut financially, but it remains to be seen if it will work. There are some polish people living on benefits, not speaking any English! It's the little things. The indigenous (some) Manx see it as their right that they can demand a job irrespective of skills and experience. If you say do Hotel work or kitchen work, they refuse, hence the need to employ Polish or other EU nationals and Filipino staff in the care/healthcare industry - the Manx won't work or get out of bed.

[Merkin]

This is brilliant. The island desperately needs to grow this industry. They need smart people on tap immediately to support these businesses otherwise they may choose another jurisdiction. Most yessirs aren't up to it. This is one of the smartest things the Gov have done in recent years. Bravo!

[Mr Shoe]

I find that folk who are look down on the "der, stupid" segment of society are themselves usually not the brightest.

 

(I also find that the most aggressive towards those in the Welfare bracket are usually just snobs one level above. Think Hyacinth Bucket)

 

Sweeping generalisations aside, our government is here to support ALL of those in our nation. Not just the go-getters. And replacing the "useless" third of our society with immigrants is repugnant.

 

I've seen first hand the difficulty of the youth in getting full time hours backed up with even a basic contract. Turn their noses up? That's crap perpetuated by the pseudo middle class.

 

Try and develop a little empathy.

 

I'm 100% with craggy on this: training for locals was always the way forward. I've found some of my best techies to be people who struggle to tie their laces. Free SQL/Cisco/.Net/PHP/etc course at the college!

 

Of course, that takes effort. So let's just change some words on a piece of paper and cross our fingers.

[WTF]

it seems to me like skelly and co see something on the horizon and want to Import certain people ( probably already lined up ) without all the pesky laws and features of the work permit system getting in the way

[Donald Trumps]

Supply and demand will dictate that degree level IT and Maths positions salaries will head towards that nominal £25k position.

 

Why pay £45k for a local SQL Expert when you can now bring in a £25k one from wherever? And very, very rapidly.

 

So, per geek, the tax take will halve. However, eGaming isn't suddenly gonna double in size.

 

Net result.....loss of government revenue. And an exodus of local talent (I sure as hell ain't working for £25k). It'll take a few years, true enough, but that's what will happen.

 

I would love to see the model (i.e. lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet) where this was planned: "and you can see by the smiley face in cell C3, that everything is fine. does anyone know how to save this to a floppy?"

 

I wish people still did Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheets

[Roger Mexico]

This is brilliant. The island desperately needs to grow this industry. They need smart people on tap immediately to support these businesses otherwise they may choose another jurisdiction. Most yessirs aren't up to it. This is one of the smartest things the Gov have done in recent years. Bravo!

 

As usual I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but if you are, you're wrong. It's not smart at all, as craggy_steve points out. It's just another disastrous change to the system to cater for some passing whim, rather than look at what is really required and how to grow a sustainable industry.

 

No one denies that the industry will need to to import many, perhaps a high percentage of the people it needs. But by definition they're not 'on tap' (if they were that good they won't be) and it also has to be encouraged to recruit and train locally too, or you'll just end up losing the nomads to the next offer. If the work permit system is being obstructive or recruitment is being clagged up with useless JSA quota applicants that needs to be addressed, but abolishing the whole system risks undermining what the industry can do for the Island.