woolley Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Scots know which side their bread's buttered just like the Irish. Anyway, why would you leave a union with which you do four times the trade you are doing with the union you propose to join? It's just a stick that the nats use to beat the UK with. It makes a lot of sense for them while they are using it to enhance their Barnett Plus settlement within the UK. If they overplay their hand it makes no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 18 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Maybe the Scottish would like their sovereignty and to bring power back to Scotland and away from the control of a 'foreign' government which foists legislation onto it from afar. Who are you talking about here, Brussels or Westminster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 the £15bn overspend is why they stay with the uk, highest in the eu apparently and wouldn't meet the 3% the eu wants of any new member..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 18 minutes ago, woody2 said: Oh Woody, you are a clever boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 It's a more complicated and nuanced picture. Many who voted for Scotland to remain in the UK were pro EU centre-ground liberal Conservatives from the One Nation tradition. These people have nothing in common with hard Brexit UKIP Tories. Edinburgh Tories are traditionally liberal internationalists. What the goons and troublemakers would call "globalists". Scotland is in many ways a microcosm. And it remains to be seen whether the Conservatives can re - build post Brexit. The UKIP / hard Brexit / DUP factions really have very little in common either with traditional Tories or with much of middle Britain. In Ireland the DUP has less and less in common with its own voters. It's really all down to whether Brexit can actually be made to work. That's not about wish lists or what ifs. And it's not about blaming the EU for being the EU. If Brexit doesn't work as well as membership then those who pushed for Brexit and supported it will be to blame. Equally - if it works then fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: Oh Woody, you are a clever boy. 7 lost mp's a year after a GE is very poor- same with labour.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, pongo said: It's a more complicated and nuanced picture. Many who voted for Scotland to remain in the UK were pro EU centre-ground liberal Conservatives from the One Nation tradition. These people have nothing in common with hard Brexit UKIP Tories. Edinburgh Tories are traditionally liberal internationalists. What the goons and troublemakers would call "globalists". Scotland is in many ways a microcosm. And it remains to be seen whether the Conservatives can re - build post Brexit. The UKIP / hard Brexit / DUP factions really have very little in common either with traditional Tories or with much of middle Britain. In Ireland the DUP has less and less in common with its own voters. It's really all down to whether Brexit can actually be made to work. That's not about wish lists or what ifs. And it's not about blaming the EU for being the EU. If Brexit doesn't work as well as membership then those who pushed for Brexit and supported it will be to blame. Equally - if it works then fine. how do you know.... snp sold it as vote for the eu= another referendum..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 28 minutes ago, woody2 said: Hey Woody. Which election results are these ? It's not 2017. And it's not 2015. Straight question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, pongo said: Hey Woody. Which election results are these ? It's not 2017. And it's not 2015. Straight question. poll of polls released on the night of the local english elections.... i did post it on the night...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 20 minutes ago, woody2 said: poll of polls released on the night of the local english elections.... You posted it as if it were somehow representative. But it's a meaningless what-if. Just noise. There is nothing to extrapolate from local govt elections. Most people don't bother voting. Only those who do are partisan. Most people don't care between Labour or Tory. Old people support Brexit - but not the free market globalist Brexit that you support. Many of the people who voted for Brexit are in the back-to-the-future / living in the past camp, And that's the big division which is coming. The two sides of Brexit have nothing in common. And Brexit doesn't fix that. I would be on your side. But it isn't going to work. It's not pragmatic. And you cannot blame the EU if Brexit turns out meh. Britain did it to itself. It deserves what it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Oh bollix! This brexit fiasco is looking even more stupid by the day. As the EU - India FTA talks move into the final phase (which stalled for ten years thanks the UK insisting on access for its bankers but no change on its visa restrictions), on the heels of the FTAs with Canada and Mexico, and just a month or so before signing off the FTAs with Japan and Singapore comes this: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/eu-approves-free-trade-negotiations-with-australia-and-nz Only hope for the UK to possibly be materially better off after brexit now is Fox, Johnson and Davis manage to get a deal with Donald Trump that doesn’t involve their asses being handed to them on a plate, and that such a deal doesn’t involve the EU and it’s trading partners taking action against the U.K. for acting as a conduit for US goods. In other words, no hope in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 @ Pongo @ Freggy. You are missing the most important sovereignty issue and the democratic deficit of the EU. Trade is secondary when it comes to fundamental principles, but trade will continue because that is what business people do well. The EU has always been very bad for the unity of the UK. It sharply divides opinion. It sets people against people, even nation against nation within the UK. This would be seen as good in Brussels as anything that weakens the cohesion of the UK correspondingly strengthens the EU so long as the UK is a member. It sticks in the throats of many that Britain is subject to the parliament and laws of an external body which are imposed from outside with no domestic scrutiny. Britain has an independent tradition, try as the establishment might to subsume it in the supposed benefits of the grand project. You may call patriots loons and troublemakers, Pongo, but you assume to yourself the wisdom of right on your side. You don't have the monopoly on that and other people may see you the same way. The masses were sold a pup in the 60s and 70s. To mix metaphors, that pup has come home to roost. We may just be in time, but we may yet mess it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 You don’t seem to understand ‘sovereignty’. In a global market the only nations with complete sovereignty in business are the very, very poor with nothing to bring to the table, the impoverished outcasts who are not wanted at the table, and the very, very big who have a table all to themselves. The UK is also a union which should involve pooled sovereignty - but the English don’t want to pool their sovereignty with Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland - and if they don’t then they might well find themselves all alone. Very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 hour ago, pongo said: You posted it as if it were somehow representative. But it's a meaningless what-if. Just noise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 @ Freggy: I do understand sovereignty. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the global market. Nations function in the global market under bilateral agreements perfectly well with none of the legal, political baggage associated with EU membership. I am sure that you know this perfectly well. It is but a fig leaf for the pro EU position. The UK is a union that had endured for over 300 years between peoples who share a group of islands and a very great deal in common. There is far more that binds us than separates us and in fact, that has been true for a thousand years of travel across the islands and inter-marriage. It will not change and most of us are products of this heritage. I have the blood of all four major countries of the British Isles in my veins. To try to equate this natural union with an attempt to unite 28 disparate countries across a continent Scot Nat style is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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