Gladys Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Great letter. It certainly explains her position, but it doesn't explain the basis of the "emergency". Nor does it explain why the climate is to blame for her Aspergers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 There was an article in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago that darkly suggested more organisation behind her than had been acknowledged and, somewhat incongruously, described her father as her manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Divide and conquer, the young versus the old who have 'squandered earth's resources, polluted the planet, caused global warming and mass extinctions' because we didn't care. Well, I remember this being discussed when I was the age of Greta! We came up with all sorts of things to prevent greenhouse gases more than thirty years ago, Catalytic convertors, safe aerosols, CFC free air conditioning systems, closing down coal powered industries, making cars and trucks more economical and clean, power saving electrical goods etc etc. The fact is that there are hundreds of solutions, which ones do we prioritise and which will give us the biggest gains? While we are cutting all of these things, the poor of the world are the ones who feel the effects most. We would be better investing in innovation to prevent a catastrophic downturn in the living standards of the poorer people of the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Gladys said: Interesting. Boris Johnson's father was on the Rob Rinder programme last Friday. I didn't know he was a conservationist. When asked about his views on the current environmental disaster, he said that his concern was the ever increasing human population which was met with horror by other guests. Astonishing, because if we want to save the world, the best thing would be to reduce our population. Or, perhaps, we just want to keep the world for ourselves? 1 hour ago, Freggyragh said: It would be interesting to discuss the apathy and fatalism that Woolley admits is his response. I don’t think I’m ready yet to adjust my own lifestyle sufficiently to be on the right side of history (what’s left of it) either. Is it impossible to control the world’s population - or would tackling poverty reverse the population growth, as it has for native populations in Europe and East Asia? It isn't just emissions. At least as big an issue consequent on the voracious growth of humanity is the destruction of natural habitat, deforestation and interference with water flows and pollution of supplies, the consequent extinction of species, both plant and animal as well as the accelerated plunder of finite resources for frivolous purposes and short term profit. Tackling poverty - and this is a laudable aim in itself - may well reverse population growth, but could exacerbate emissions levels and resource depletion as those populations, quite reasonably, look at our lifestyle and scream "me too!" I may be wrong, hope I am, but I cannot see the current trajectory as in any way sustainable. The only reason we have been able to sustain the population growth as well as our lifestyles since the industrial revolution is by the massive burning of fossil fuel. Unless there is a quantum leap in replacement energy technology very soon we will only be able to tinker around the edges of the problem and wait to see what is in store for us. As ever, the elite will be OK and the disadvantaged will be up to their knees in water and choking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 41 minutes ago, Gladys said: Great letter. It certainly explains her position, but it doesn't explain the basis of the "emergency". Nor does it explain why the climate is to blame for her Aspergers. Who is blaming anything or anyone for her Aspergers? Anyway, she sees it as a gift. Do you really need convincing on the science? Have a watch: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 36 minutes ago, Max Power said: Divide and conquer, the young versus the old who have 'squandered earth's resources, polluted the planet, caused global warming and mass extinctions' because we didn't care. Well, I remember this being discussed when I was the age of Greta! We came up with all sorts of things to prevent greenhouse gases more than thirty years ago, Catalytic convertors, safe aerosols, CFC free air conditioning systems, closing down coal powered industries, making cars and trucks more economical and clean, power saving electrical goods etc etc. The fact is that there are hundreds of solutions, which ones do we prioritise and which will give us the biggest gains? While we are cutting all of these things, the poor of the world are the ones who feel the effects most. We would be better investing in innovation to prevent a catastrophic downturn in the living standards of the poorer people of the world! The aerosols and CFC free cooling systems were about the ozone layer - which is in a much healthier state today that it was in 1985. Transport seems to be the most difficult problem. It’s going to be very difficult to come up with anything eco that’s as convenient and practical as driving a fossil fuelled car or flying in a fossil fuelled plane. What she says about meat and dairy is a bit naive, traditional pasture farming is underused, at least in these isles, and actually captures carbon. Monocrop arable farming is as destructive an industry as any though, but not just the crops that go to feed-lots, human food and bio-fuel too. Poor people obviously have a much, much lower carbon footprint than wealthy people, but poor people also breed like rabbits. I think we need to keep looking at how financial elites within and without poor countries exploit populations and hinder development. There must be better ways forward. There does seem to be a pattern in human societies that limits population size once a reasonable standard of living and security is reached. Anyway, I’m glad we’ve moved on to thinking about her message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 How was the ozone layer in the 1970s, 1940s, 1800s?l or 1700s? That's the problem, nobody knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 7 hours ago, Gladys said: How was the ozone layer in the 1970s, 1940s, 1800s?l or 1700s? That's the problem, nobody knows. CFCs aren’t, as far as I’m aware, naturally occurring and weren’t synthesised until the late 1890s. The ozone layer was discovered in 1913 - before commercial production of CFCs, which didn’t take off until the 1940s. Ozone depletion was first predicted in about 1973 by scientists who had worked out that CFC’s, would have such an effect. By 1985 those predictions were demonstrably coming true, steps were taken to phase out CFC production and the ozone layer healed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, Freggyragh said: CFCs aren’t, as far as I’m aware, naturally occurring and weren’t synthesised until the late 1890s. The ozone layer was discovered in 1913 - before commercial production of CFCs, which didn’t take off until the 1940s. Ozone depletion was first predicted in about 1973 by scientists who had worked out that CFC’s, would have such an effect. By 1985 those predictions were demonstrably coming true, steps were taken to phase out CFC production and the ozone layer healed. they are....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 9 hours ago, Freggyragh said: Who is blaming anything or anyone for her Aspergers? Anyway, she sees it as a gift. Do you really need convincing on the science? Have a watch: her parents..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, woody2 said: they are....... http://apps.sepa.org.uk/spripa/Pages/SubstanceInformation.aspx?pid=114 One of the very many websites which state that they are not naturally occurring. Google is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, The Lurker said: http://apps.sepa.org.uk/spripa/Pages/SubstanceInformation.aspx?pid=114 One of the very many websites which state that they are not naturally occurring. Google is your friend. chlorofluorocarbons are emitted from volcanoes..... Quote The principal components of volcanic gases are water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), sulfur either as sulfur dioxide (SO2) (high-temperature volcanic gases) or hydrogen sulfide (H2S) (low-temperature volcanic gases), nitrogen, argon, helium, neon, methane, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Other compounds detected in volcanic gases are oxygen (meteoric), hydrogen chloride, hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen bromide, nitrogen oxide (NOx), sulfur hexafluoride, carbonyl sulfide, and organic compounds. Exotic trace compounds include mercury, halocarbons (including CFCs), and halogen oxide radicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, woody2 said: chlorofluorocarbons are emitted from volcanoes..... I ordinarily don't like doing this but I'm afraid I'm going to have to call for a link supporting that as it contradicts everything I read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 9 minutes ago, The Lurker said: I ordinarily don't like doing this but I'm afraid I'm going to have to call for a link supporting that as it contradicts everything I read. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_gas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lurker Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 26 minutes ago, woody2 said: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_gas Anything with a bit more weight to it than Wikipedia? This isn’t an attack on you Woody but a quick search found several sites with significantly more scientific gravitas than wiki that don’t agree with that. https://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2017/08/how-future-volcanic-eruptions-will-impact-earth-s-ozone-layer This link (from Harvard) seems to suggest that it’s a reaction between volcanic gasses and pre-existing man made CFC’s and halogens that effects the ozone layer; I don’t claim to understand the science. Ordinarily I try to resist my natural tendencies towards pedantry but in this instance there is so much misinformation out there and most people as evidenced by this thread are unwilling to do their own research into the matter that I think it’s important that everything is based in scientific fact. Climate change is massively inconvenient but it is happening; I have a lot more respect for people who are willing to admit that they simply don’t want to make uncomfortable changes or curtail their lifestyle than people who try to hide behind the tiny percentage of accredited scientists who deny its existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.