Douglas South

[Manx Bean]

On 8/5/2021 at 12:24 PM, Amadeus said:

https://gef.im/2021/08/05/higgins-to-contest-douglas-constituency/
 

 

So, to put it bluntly - a lifetime civil servant who wants to have a go...no thanks.

[SleepyJoe]

Unlikely to achieve a huge amount of support but a former civil servant calling for smaller government has some merit 😃

[Manx Bean]

23 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

Strange he is only calling for it now he’s got 40 years in the pension bank.

Yes. He clearly feels he can squeeze another 5 years out of the pot - not to mention a Tynwald Pension.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Manx Bean

[Declan]

2 hours ago, Manx Bean said:

Yes. He clearly feels he can squeeze another 5 years out of the pot - not to mention a Tynwald Pension.

To be fair he says - 

“I will bring forward a Private Members Bill to reduce the salary of any MHK if they are in receipt of an Isle of Man Government pension by the amount equivalent to that pension. I will campaign for a pay freeze for politicians for the next five years and a mechanism which will enable you to remove your local representatives if they fail to perform.”

[Manx Bean]

11 hours ago, Declan said:

To be fair he says - 

“I will bring forward a Private Members Bill to reduce the salary of any MHK if they are in receipt of an Isle of Man Government pension by the amount equivalent to that pension. I will campaign for a pay freeze for politicians for the next five years and a mechanism which will enable you to remove your local representatives if they fail to perform.”

Like Turkeys voting for Christmas. Jesus, really?

[Ramseyboi]

12 hours ago, Declan said:

and a mechanism which will enable you to remove your local representatives if they fail to perform.”

How is that going to work then.  You will just constantly have people who don’t like a particular MHKS trying to get them turfed out and so waste more taxpayers money on stupid processes.

Just typical waffle that is intended to win people over but can never be acted on.

[TheTeapot]

3 minutes ago, Ramseyboi said:

How is that going to work then.  You will just constantly have people who don’t like a particular MHKS trying to get them turfed out and so waste more taxpayers money on stupid processes.

Just typical waffle that is intended to win people over but can never be acted on.

 A recall option would be a valuable addition to our democracy. It just has to be legislated correctly to ensure the requirements are both achievable while also tough enough to ensure it can't be manipulated. Difficult to work it out, especially for places like Douglas south where 500 votes could win you £300k.

[Declan]

I think you'd need quite a high bar to instigate a recall mechanism. In most places something needs to have happened to trigger the mechanism, not just that they disagree with you.

The UK seems to be - 

• MP needs to have done something wrong. (i.e. criminal conviction for making false expense claims, suspension from House of Commons, prison sentence etc)
• Petition from 10% registered voters.

It's not there to swap MPs in marginal seats if the polls change, or to oust a minister who's made an unpopular decision, or to cancel an MP making a controversial comment. 

The only instance I think it could have been invoked locally is when John Houghton was suspended.

[Declan]

Just now, offshoremanxman said:

Like promising that you’ll bring in a private members bill to stop you getting paid twice then not successfully bringing in a private members bill and being paid twice? 

No, doing something illegal. 

The cynicism here typifies the worst aspects of MF.

A new candidate declares, and it's "ahh ex civil servant after more time on the gravy train." 

Yet in the very article people react to he's proposing his salary be reduced by his pension and a cap on MHK pay rises. That's pointed out and it's dismissed because it would never get through the Keys (it would if we voted for candidates that supported it). 

Now you're suggesting he should be deselected (from a role he hasn't got yet) for trying to bring in a bill stopping the double dip and being voted down by others (which might not happen) and doesn't voluntarily forego what he legally gets paid for a job he's doing (at a rate he's trying to cap) and a pension he's entitled to (which he might). 

There are certain posters on here that apply the same illogic to every candidate.

[Ramseyboi]

27 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

Like promising that you’ll bring in a private members bill to stop you getting paid twice then not successfully bringing in a private members bill and being paid twice? 

Exactly.  It is a completely pointless suggestion.

There are already disciplinary steps for gross misconduct etc.  Anything else is subject to interpretation as it isn’t easily measurable.

Meaningless waffle that just shows a lack of appreciation of how things work.  Not a hope in hell of ever coming up with a useful bill and getting it though.

[Declan]

See I think you're just so determined to be critical you're flailing around. 

 

Quote

He’s promised something as an election promise that he might not be able to deliver and he certainly has no control over any vote on any private members bill. So why shouldn’t an MHK be recalled for that as that’s basically hoodwinking the voters.

He's promised to bring forwarded a private members bill not that it would be successful. People voting in a General Election know that's a possibility - no-one's being hoodwinked. 

If I really wanted policy x to go through I wouldn't want to recall the MHK who tried and failed to fix it but the ones who blocked it. But the recall process shouldn't be used just for an MHK pursuing policies I (or anybody) disagrees with - that's what elections are for. 

Quote

He’s openly saying he won’t take the pension and the salary but it looks highly probable that he will end up taking the pension and the salary. That’s not cynical it’s a logical conclusion. 

Well, you don't know he'll fail. Or if he does what action he'll take with the extra salary. 

What's cynical is you began by criticising him for having 40 years in the pension pot and now looking to double dip. Then dismissing he proposal to address that concern because now you are concerned that public sector workers won't stand if double-dipping is barred. 

Quote

Furthermore if any private members bill was successful it would basically stop any retired teacher, firemen, policeman, civil servant, or any other public sector worker standing as an MHK as they wouldn’t get paid for it 

Actually they would if their pension is less than the MHK salary. 

 

Seriously, how could anyone in his position satisfy you?

[Declan]

52 minutes ago, Ramseyboi said:

There are already disciplinary steps for gross misconduct etc.  Anything else is subject to interpretation as it isn’t easily measurable.

 

What are the steps to remove an MHK for gross misconduct?

[Declan]

17 hours ago, offshoremanxman said:

Strange he is only calling for it [smaller government]

now he’s got 40 years in the pension bank.

 

17 hours ago, Manx Bean said:

Yes. He clearly feels he can squeeze another 5 years out of the pot - not to mention a Tynwald Pension.

 

14 hours ago, Declan said:

To be fair he says - 

“I will bring forward a Private Members Bill to reduce the salary of any MHK if they are in receipt of an Isle of Man Government pension by the amount equivalent to that pension. I will campaign for a pay freeze for politicians for the next five years and a mechanism which will enable you to remove your local representatives if they fail to perform.”

 

13 hours ago, offshoremanxman said:

And how likely is any of that to happen? Who in reality is going to vote enmasse for a five year pay freeze of their own pay?

So my perception is you criticised him for the pension pot before realising he'd made a suggestion to counter that. Maybe, you didn't but Manx Bean certainly did. 

The point is a cycle like...

• "He'll double-dip."
• "He wants to stop that."
• "They'll prevent him"
• "See I told you he wants to double-dip"

Allows you to be cynical whatever he does.

[Declan]

You've forgotten what your original point was and are just trying to win an argument with me for the sake of it.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Declan

[quilp]

All that he proposes will never come about in his lifetime anyway, which he probably knows. The legislation will take years to adjust. He's nowt to lose.