Chief Minister: Allan Bell V Peter Karran

[b4mbi]

The CM role is for a statesman i.e. the Isle of Man's foremost political representative on the international stage.

 

Can you even possibly imagine how Karran would have performed in front of the Treasury Select Committee in the UK in 2009?

Brown wasn't great, but compared to Karran????

 

It's doesn't bear thinking about.

 

Like it or not, Bell is the most statesman like politician the Island has and the only sensible choice for CM.

[Pierrot Lunaire]

to emerge - Brown-like - as saviour of the nation

Hurrah - saved by the Iris Incubus.

[John Wright]

Just rang BBC IOM to complain that yet again, on the BBC IOM Website, they state that AB is our longest serving politician. He may be the longest serving in the Keys, but in Tynwald he is still 10 years short of Eddie Lowey.

[Albert Tatlock]

Just rang BBC IOM to complain that yet again, on the BBC IOM Website, they state that AB is our longest serving politician. He may be the longest serving in the Keys, but in Tynwald he is still 10 years short of Eddie Lowey.

Semantics. Depends on what you mean by 'serving politician' doesn't it? MLCs are not elected and are therefore not actually serving politicians in my book.

 

We could equally call him: "The longest-grasping; most unelected; non-remit-holding freeloader the island has seen for a long time".

[Shake me up Judy]

Just rang BBC IOM to complain that yet again, on the BBC IOM Website, they state that AB is our longest serving politician. He may be the longest serving in the Keys, but in Tynwald he is still 10 years short of Eddie Lowey.

 

John: You were talking on Manx Radio at lunchtime about some very interesting historical statistics and background on Manx politics. Could you point me in the direction of your information to save me time in the Tynwald library please ? Many thanks.

[John Wright]

There is a booklet which was published by Tom Sherratt, a Labour activist from the NorthWest, with an interest in the IOM political scene in the 1970's. I met him and have his booklet on election results 1919 to 1976. The copy in Tynwald library is updated to 1996 by Adrian Pilgrim. A mine of useful info. I have the 2001 and 2006 results plus intervening bye elections

[wheels]

For me this sad process shows up the problems with the Island's political system.

 

Tynwald is too small to provide any effective form of opposition, as a result it will always be senior members of the last Comin who will be dominant - other than the Speaker where Mr Rodan seems to be following a Brown strategy - sit quiet in a wig, but become well known, while members of Comin have to deal with events (dear boy, events).

 

So this election consists of the biggest surviving hitter and the only politician who has made a career out of saying no to everything comin has done.

 

There is no way whatsoever Mr Karran is upto the job so it has to be Bell, unless there are some real spoilt paper shenanigans - but with two such imbalanced candidates, I'm doubtful anything will happen - alot of MHKs will have to spoil their votes to stop Bell getting a majority - how many are really going to vote for Karran?

 

Is Bell suitable? I'm honestly not sure.

 

I feel he was fully aware that the IOM's vat agreement was over generous - I can remember him highlighting its importance to the Island's economy.

 

Knowing the gravy train couldn't go on, has he been sensible in managing the purse strings at a sustainable level, or has he expanded government unsustainably with serious consequences when the gravy train stops.

 

I'm sure he'll say he used the extra VAT money to build better infrastructure etc. but lack of control and oversight let these balloon massively, and the Civil service ballooned too, leaving a much larger state to be paid for even when these infrastructure proejcts come to an end.

 

Now we are facing the bust, there is some justice in Bell having to sort it out - but also the bust is as bad as it is due to his earlier management of the public purse.

 

Is he up to the job? I've no idea.

 

I'll say he's an experienced IOM politician who does have a certain amount of gravitas - more than Brown at any rate!

 

But I am very disappointed that there is not going to be a real contest, where the candidates have to lay out proper realistic policies etc.

 

Karran isn't up to that, and Bell will be able to stick to platitudes and waffle and still be elected.

 

Tynwald has to be reformed to give a better separation of powers with the centre of gravity moved away from Comin dominance.

 

Or else there will never be a break from the old regime and a genuine contest of policies rather than waffle and personalities.

I feel this is the crux of the matter

The Manx 'version' of democrcay is unsatisfactory in a number of areas.

As for effective reformation, I suspect that will be completely sidelined in the next few years if not longer under the excuse of there being far too many pressing matters to be dealt with.

And

*Donning body armour*

Perhaps it is time for the UK as being ultimately responsible for the good governance of the IOM to push matters and impose some reform.

*Climbs down into slit trench with a months supplies*

[VinnieK]

A choice between Bell and Karran is like a choice between death by poison or slitting your throat.

 

Quite so. People talk of Bell's experience and statesmanlike qualities, but the fact of the matter is that whenever in the past he was in a department which allowed a formulation of policy he made a number of blunders and poor decisions.

 

I think a lot of people overestimate the role of treasury minister. Although a strong and talented individual who knows what they're doing can use the treasury to effect change and put their stamp on politics, the nature of the work means that a weak and callow individual can simply state a couple of overarching objectives, sit back and let his or her civil servants and the wrangling between different departments dictate how things ultimately unfold. My guess would be that Bell fits in with the latter more than the former, and I think the piecemeal and occassionally gimmicky evolution of the economy testifies to this.

 

As for other qualities, I find it difficult to believe that a man who's characterised as having a loud hissy fit every time things start going against him can be described as a statesman. Ignore the pre-prepared speeches and press releases, and focus on how Bell responds when he's forced to think on his feet: recent talk of 'the enemy within', headless chicken demands that something be done whenever the debate's is going against him and so on aren't the hallmarks of a statesman. They sound more like the kind of hapless mentalism which started to creep in during the dying days of the Major and Brown governments in the UK.

 

I desperately hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next five years do little but demonstrate once and for all how out of his depth Bell has been for much of his career and how poorly he deals with it.

 

That said, I don't think Karran is a viable contender. I simply can't imagine people voting for him out of anything but a desire to mount a protest, and even then I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that some of those MHKs who aren't so enamoured with Bell would nevertheless vote for him out of a desire to keep Karran out.

 

All in all, we've a long five years ahead of us.

[Triskelion1000]

I suspect what will happen is that a few will vote for AB and the LV two will vote for PK and many will spoil their papers in order that there's a second round when John Shimmin will enter the race. I think JS would be OK as CM with AB back at Treasury where he was happy and Eddie Teare at DED. I understand, from a very reliable source who wanted Annie Craine for CM, that AB isn't a good team player.

No shit! He's an awful Bigot and as has been said over and over, many, many Skeletons. The man's spent so long covering his Political arse he's absent thought for others and can't be a team player.

 

Glad Annie got cast aside. Peter Karran at least has the IOM's interests at heart and will endeavour to do the right thing but I think we all know Slopey Bell will have done deals and will be in. God save us from this idiot!

[Triskelion1000]

A choice between Bell and Karran is like a choice between death by poison or slitting your throat.

 

Quite so. People talk of Bell's experience and statesmanlike qualities, but the fact of the matter is that whenever in the past he was in a department which allowed a formulation of policy he made a number of blunders and poor decisions.

 

I think a lot of people overestimate the role of treasury minister. Although a strong and talented individual who knows what they're doing can use the treasury to effect change and put their stamp on politics, the nature of the work means that a weak and callow individual can simply state a couple of overarching objectives, sit back and let his or her civil servants and the wrangling between different departments dictate how things ultimately unfold. My guess would be that Bell fits in with the latter more than the former, and I think the piecemeal and occassionally gimmicky evolution of the economy testifies to this.

 

As for other qualities, I find it difficult to believe that a man who's characterised as having a loud hissy fit every time things start going against him can be described as a statesman. Ignore the pre-prepared speeches and press releases, and focus on how Bell responds when he's forced to think on his feet: recent talk of 'the enemy within', headless chicken demands that something be done whenever the debate's is going against him and so on aren't the hallmarks of a statesman. They sound more like the kind of hapless mentalism which started to creep in during the dying days of the Major and Brown governments in the UK.

 

I desperately hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next five years do little but demonstrate once and for all how out of his depth Bell has been for much of his career and how poorly he deals with it.

 

That said, I don't think Karran is a viable contender. I simply can't imagine people voting for him out of anything but a desire to mount a protest, and even then I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that some of those MHKs who aren't so enamoured with Bell would nevertheless vote for him out of a desire to keep Karran out.

 

All in all, we've a long five years ahead of us.

I've heard of these hissy fits! What an imbecile. Bastille for Bell as soon as he's in.

 

This Clown is nowhere to be seen when the shit hits the fan, see KSF and other situations where people have been disgruntled and needed a Politician to stand in front of them and take abuse and reason with calm. Mr "Do you know who I am", Mr "in the Gym and M&S but never at his desk" Bell.

 

We need a steady hand and a voice of reason and patience. Things won't improve overnight no matter who gets in but I think we're better off with PK than AB any day of the week.

[Blade Runner]

I will nail my whatever to the something! and state now that I favour Alan Bell for CM.

 

I plumped for him at the election and though he has been responsible for a number of poor decisions I still think he is the best we have for that position I am sure he has learned from his mistakes. We all make mistakes and we learn, that is often how life is.

 

Yes, he no doubt has his speeches written for him, as most will do I would imagine, that is exactly the same as other politicians do the whole world over and I really don't see a problem with that.

 

He has been a lone voice urging caution with spending in the last few years, he never told us the real reason behind it, he knew the Vat was being slashed as early as 2006 but I suppose it would of been more than his jobs worth to spoil TBs early glory in the last government and with TBs style of government what could any of them of done really.

 

He is the only politician that has publically stated that we need to continue with immigration to ensure the islands long term viability not least to go some way to pay the pension "black hole"

 

Some have said he is not a team player, I don't see a problem with that as long as he can lead and in this coming government with the problems we are facing, we need a strong leader which I think he will handle well with input from a group of advisers for the detail.

 

The ministerial type of government we have now has been a liability in the last few years due to the CMs personality's, if you think back to when it was Sir Miles Walker in charge it worked really well because we had a sensible, intelligent person in the chair. Hopefully we will be able to do something in a similar manner with the new CM.

 

More than ever we all need to put aside our sniping and glass half empty attitude and support the new CM, whoever it turns out to be and only if we all pull together, can we come out of this with a decent future for ourselves and our children on this island.

 

Should he not get the CM position, I cant really see PK getting it, so if it goes to another round I would think that John Shimmin would perform the task satisfactorily.

 

Thats just my opinion, feel free to have your own................................ Which I am guessing will differ.

[mojomonkey]

What amazes me is that Allan Bell has been publicly named and shamed in things like the Mount Murray Report as effectively being corrupt yet he is now heading towards a position were you'll call the shots. Crazy!

[x-in-man]

It's going to be Bell.

 

It's his turn now - Brown told him before he went.

[ponderer]

Has any effort been made by the newly elected MHKs to 'take soundings' about who their constituents think should be CM and what the key issues are in that decision? I haven't heard anything.

 

The role of CM is very important and the Manx political system would be much stronger and democratic if there is some kind of connection between the electorate and the CM....

 

At the moment all we seem to have is this thread....

[slieau dhoo]

A choice between Bell and Karran is like a choice between death by poison or slitting your throat.

 

Quite so. People talk of Bell's experience and statesmanlike qualities, but the fact of the matter is that whenever in the past he was in a department which allowed a formulation of policy he made a number of blunders and poor decisions.

 

I think a lot of people overestimate the role of treasury minister. Although a strong and talented individual who knows what they're doing can use the treasury to effect change and put their stamp on politics, the nature of the work means that a weak and callow individual can simply state a couple of overarching objectives, sit back and let his or her civil servants and the wrangling between different departments dictate how things ultimately unfold. My guess would be that Bell fits in with the latter more than the former, and I think the piecemeal and occassionally gimmicky evolution of the economy testifies to this.

 

As for other qualities, I find it difficult to believe that a man who's characterised as having a loud hissy fit every time things start going against him can be described as a statesman. Ignore the pre-prepared speeches and press releases, and focus on how Bell responds when he's forced to think on his feet: recent talk of 'the enemy within', headless chicken demands that something be done whenever the debate's is going against him and so on aren't the hallmarks of a statesman. They sound more like the kind of hapless mentalism which started to creep in during the dying days of the Major and Brown governments in the UK.

 

I desperately hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if the next five years do little but demonstrate once and for all how out of his depth Bell has been for much of his career and how poorly he deals with it.

 

That said, I don't think Karran is a viable contender. I simply can't imagine people voting for him out of anything but a desire to mount a protest, and even then I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that some of those MHKs who aren't so enamoured with Bell would nevertheless vote for him out of a desire to keep Karran out.

 

All in all, we've a long five years ahead of us.

 

+1 well said

 

a comprehensive list of his (many) failings was in a thread on here a while back. id suggest his "fans" take a read of this before they hail him as our saviour

 

moving planning responsibilities to DED will be one of his first moves ...

 

il look forward to inevitable bleating of "boost for the construction industry....stimulate the housing market....high net worth indivduals....need to attract can do people...need for rich to reside here... immigration key to plug pension black hole"

 

you might want to make the most of our countryside while its still there!