b4mbi Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Given recent news items on IOM Today, what is stopping our politicians (and why not join forces on this with the other crown dependencies) unilaterally declaring that the rights of EU citizens will be protected on the respective Islands? Would give the Islands a lot of positive PR, and ensure that crown dependencies are not forgotten in Brexit negotiations... Only thing I can see is the big stick from Westminster warning us not to do that as it would undermine their negotiations, but given that our access to the markets is going to fall away anyway as protocol 3 becomes redundant when UK leave, what do we have to lose? Appreciate there are probably very good reasons why we can't, but what are they?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 If you are Manx, you get a bit in your passport that says "Not entitled to benefit from EU provisions relating to employment or establishment", so it'd be a bit of a cuck move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Colombe Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 minute ago, b4mbi said: what do we have to lose? Err, more VAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 iomg don't have the power to start with.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 I don't understand this argument. What is wrong with the position of the UK government that there will be a reciprocal deal on each other's citizens? Where does this moronic attitude that we give away all our cards before we even start come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, b4mbi said: Given recent news items on IOM Today, what is stopping our politicians (and why not join forces on this with the other crown dependencies) unilaterally declaring that the rights of EU citizens will be protected on the respective Islands? Would give the Islands a lot of positive PR, and ensure that crown dependencies are not forgotten in Brexit negotiations... Only thing I can see is the big stick from Westminster warning us not to do that as it would undermine their negotiations, but given that our access to the markets is going to fall away anyway as protocol 3 becomes redundant when UK leave, what do we have to lose? Appreciate there are probably very good reasons why we can't, but what are they?! You are not sovereign. You have no power only internal self-government under London control...Your immigration laws are basically in line with the UK save for work permits... Your laws at some stage require the Royal Assent usually via the Lt Governor and under London's authority so nothing you say has any effect or standing save as you are given leave.. In recent negotiations and signings about information exchange and financial compliance etc the Islands represented themselves ...rather than in the past UK officials doing the job ....but it was done under Letters of Entrustment empowering the islands and as issued to them from London. As the CM says, the Islands have no power over the outcome of Brexit but they have a firm presence and are not excluded....Basically you have to eat up whatever is put on your plate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 may offered a deal they refused, if anyone is going to cause harm it will be the eu.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 23 minutes ago, woolley said: I don't understand this argument. What is wrong with the position of the UK government that there will be a reciprocal deal on each other's citizens? Where does this moronic attitude that we give away all our cards before we even start come from? In the past I've worked with people like this. "If we give it away for free, people will think we are nice" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christians A hole Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 There is a solution to all of this. It may not be simple or straight forward but it is something which has and still need's to be considered. Unfortunately, the 'cronies' brushed it under the carpet as being too much like hard work, the lazy old sods. Independence! I realise I may be opening a can of worms but the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Colombe Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 6 minutes ago, Christians A hole said: What say you? You spelt independence incorrectly. Unless you've invented a new dance. For worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, Christians A hole said: Independance! The well known Manx inbred tango, or the lesser known Foxdale Fling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 26 minutes ago, woolley said: I don't understand this argument. What is wrong with the position of the UK government that there will be a reciprocal deal on each other's citizens? Where does this moronic attitude that we give away all our cards before we even start come from? So far the issue of various EU citizens rights in the UK &/ or EU seem to hinge on access if any to the Single Market. The UK seems to think it can get a good deal to the Single Market with few alterations ie "Business as usual"...But the EU indicates that any access to the EU must include free movement of people...The UK seeks to redefine this term..The EU thinks that it is nothing if not an area of free movement and so the UK may end up with hard Brexit under WTO rules as the pro-Brexit "Nuttas" seem to want. The Maastricht Treaty of 1992 was signed by the Isle of Man under Sir Miles Walker. I have held the very document in my hands and tried to understand it! Well nigh impossible! Although the Island's version of Maastricht was amended slightly to reflect its non-EU-EC member status Maastricht did introduce the concept of EU Citizenship which if I am right in thinking then became reality under the subsequent Lisbon Treaty...So seemingly "We" are all EU Citizens as an adjunct or our national citizenship. I imagine that the UK will end up with a deal akin to the formation of the Irish Free State that on a certain day and time millions will attain and hold the rights of abode and citizenship where they happen to be at the time....Some people mainy Brits in Spain are already voting with their feet and drifting back to Blighty. In the case of Ireland partition and the south's departure from the union of the United Kingdom created a category of people who whilst Irish and in the Free State retained or achieved British Citizenship. The key I recall was a date in in 1922? I saw a UK Govt website estimating when the last of this category of "Irish-Brits" was expected to die out and I have in the past met older Irish people with British passports and of course Irish ones as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 26 minutes ago, b4mbi said: Given recent news items on IOM Today, what is stopping our politicians (and why not join forces on this with the other crown dependencies) unilaterally declaring that the rights of EU citizens will be protected on the respective Islands? The fact they don't have the power. All decisions regarding immigration etc remain with the UK and there's nothing they can do to change them. At most they have a few extra exclusionary powers, but no extra inclusionary ones. What is more all the forces of law and order - the judiciary, police and so on - are basically Crown employees or controlled by them. So the politicians don't have the ultimate power to tell them to ignore Westminster's rules. What is little discussed is not just the rights of EU nationals that are more recent arrivals, but those who have been here a long time. The last Census showed there being 4184 EU nationals on the Island (about 5% of the population). But included will be nearly all the 1526 born in the Republic of Ireland, many of whom will have been on the Island for decades as there has never been a reason for them to get a British passport. And many other EU nationals, especially from those countries that were members pre-2001, will be in a similar situation. At the moment they have no future security of residence here. It's quite possible that someone who came over from Ireland in the 50s or 60s; has a Manx partner, children and grandchildren; has paid tax and into the social security system their entire working life; could be packed back off to Ireland once Brexit happens. Because even nearly a year after the vote nothing has been decided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrie Stevens Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, Christians A hole said: There is a solution to all of this. It may not be simple or straight forward but it is something which has and still need's to be considered. Unfortunately, the 'cronies' brushed it under the carpet as being too much like hard work, the lazy old sods. Independance! I realise I may be opening a can of worms but the positives greatly outweigh the negatives. What say you? There is both a solution and a procedure. It is called "A Referendum!"...The island has enabling legislation in hand...I have a feeling that most people are not Manx nor Islanders and such a referendum will say "No!"...Once again, you are not sovereign and cannot move a finger without UK approval. Even general elections there last I looked required the Lt Governor's authority....Also, you could not join the EU even if you wanted to. Too small and unable to become "Acquis"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody2 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: The fact they don't have the power. All decisions regarding immigration etc remain with the UK and there's nothing they can do to change them. At most they have a few extra exclusionary powers, but no extra inclusionary ones. What is more all the forces of law and order - the judiciary, police and so on - are basically Crown employees or controlled by them. So the politicians don't have the ultimate power to tell them to ignore Westminster's rules. What is little discussed is not just the rights of EU nationals that are more recent arrivals, but those who have been here a long time. The last Census showed there being 4184 EU nationals on the Island (about 5% of the population). But included will be nearly all the 1526 born in the Republic of Ireland, many of whom will have been on the Island for decades as there has never been a reason for them to get a British passport. And many other EU nationals, especially from those countries that were members pre-2001, will be in a similar situation. At the moment they have no future security of residence here. It's quite possible that someone who came over from Ireland in the 50s or 60s; has a Manx partner, children and grandchildren; has paid tax and into the social security system their entire working life; could be packed back off to Ireland once Brexit happens. Because even nearly a year after the vote nothing has been decided. utter rubbish.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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