New Rules

[Annoymouse]

On the subject of using real names, I have to be careful as my workplace has a strict social media rule in the sense of, for as long as you are employed by the company, you are representing the company.

It doesn't stop me using social media I just have to be careful and think twice before replying or writing something in the public domain.

With that said I would be happy to register with my real name but use an alias for posting for that reason, how that would fit with data protection I'm not sure.

My other concern is I can only imagine some of the older posters don't use Facebook (as forums were around first) and we would loose a wealth of information. On that note  , what would happened to the forum would it go into archive mode like iomtt.com? 

[P.K.]

17 hours ago, John Wright said:

I fully support the move. I may not be a moderator any more, but I can tell you it's time consuming and because I post using my own name I got not only messages but e-mails and phone calls.

one poster has cost me more time and anguish over the last 4 years than all the other posters I've had to deal with.

i was thinking of giving up before I got ill. The personal attacks challenging a moderating decision I made for the good of the forum were a last straw.

There seems to be too much mud slinging, too much negativity, the ad hominem attacks, the antics of one or two posters, the tone of the pontless left/right debate ( actually not a debate, just the exchange of fake news factoids, Insults etc ) mean I don't visit or read much. 

I felt besieged as a moderator, by the constant challenges. The constant criticism,. The constant allegations that we all had multiple accounts and an ulterior agenda.

I'm sure I'm not alone in being absolutely appalled by the above.

Personally attacking folks for trying to keep what should be a fun place alive is an absolute disgrace.

The left/right debate came as a bit of a surprise to me as I wasn't aware there were any left-hookers on here! Myself, quilp, woolster etc do enjoy teasing one another though.

I hope this place remains somewhere where I can continue to express my somewhat quirky sense of humour.

[wrighty]

Banning new registrations is a good idea, although a shame for the few genuine new users that may be lost during the hopefully short time this lasts for. 

I'd welcome a registration process that involves real ID confirmation. Still allow posting under a username, and keep details secret, but it would allow mods to identify sock puppet accounts. These are often obvious however. 

I post here less than I used to, mainly because if there is any interesting debate or news it's lost in all the noise. Over the few years I've been on I have learnt some things and had my views challenged. I changed my views on gender identity after a debate with LDV (a poster I once called a 'twat' regarding another matter, but one of the forum's more interesting contributors whose input is missed). Chinahand has convinced me that the earth is not flat. Tarne amuses me in a Frankie Boyle 'I can't believe he said that, but it's funny' sort of way. 

It'd be sad to see the forum go. It's different from Facebook, which I use quite a bit, and Twitter, which I don't get. I hope we manage to ride this storm, and the handful of knobheads who seem intent on trashing the place get bored and move on. 

[Tarne]

There's an old thread on invisioncommunity that speaks of easy way to locate duplicate IP addys associated with accounts. 

https://invisioncommunity.com/forums/topic/236550-looking-up-duplicate-ips/

The, what, 100 odd accounts, that the problem character has can't be hard to locate. I've ran my own forums (now we just use Reddit), own MUDs, own gaming communities and there's never been a way NOT to deal with problem characters robustly. You can filter out people who have the same workplace but are different people pretty easily so you don't affect them. 

I'm on, what, four bans now because of a couple of sockpuppetting fucknuggets - I had never had problems in the previous ten years I've been on this forum until that (Sorry Ans) really stupid sockpuppet clause got brought in - The mod response annoyed me as it was letting those with puppets just open another account straight away to avoid the ban whilst those of us with one account were left scuppered. 

[guzzi]

I'm sorry to read all this.  FB is all very well but it isn't really optimized for discussion in the same way as a forum, and there are some thoughtful and knowledgeable contributors on here.  It will be a shame to lose that because a few people can't help but act like jerks.  Anonymity and keyboards can really empower the jerks, though.

I agree with the option of a registration with a verified identity and a registration fee, it would raise a barrier against the disrupters. No need to abandon anonymous screen identities, but with the knowledge that a posters actual identity is known to the admins, and that therefore they ultimately could face criminal or civil liability for what they post.

[The Bastard]

The problem with IPs is that (a) the "problem" lunatic uses proxies - you've seen the threads where he pretended to be French etc. because he was using a french proxy at the time, so it'll just be "whack-a-mole" (b) IPs will be shared by a number of people in the case of a fixed-IP corporate gateway, and are changeable - non-fixed home user IPs will change on a regular basis. Ban a non-fixed  IP, and it will change. But, as before, restricting to just IOM IP's will make it easier to build up patterns of commonality between accounts to stop all this sock-puppet lunacy.

[ans]

Tarne, I think you might have missed the entire point of the clause then

It was never about preventing sockpuppets. Ultimately, there are enough free vpn services out there which anyone can use to register a new account with a new IP,  you end up having to  kick them back off after you'd checked the other things the forum logs. That's a manual process though and not all mods have access to the admin area. 

The clause was trying to discourage the pollution of every thread with accusations of sockpuppets, which always rapidly descended into ad hominem attacks. I really don't want to get into any specific debate about any individual posters, but I would ask you to look at your last warning and the post you made and ask yourself if that was helpful and contributed to the discussion in a positive way. Go back to the first page of that thread and check out the fourth post. It's that sort of stuff we wanted to stamp out. 

[DragonS]

I too followed Manx forums for a couple of years before I decided to join. My hesitance was because of family connections, even though my views are my own, they could have been targeted for abuse. I like the anonymity which Manx forums provides as it allows me to contribute without any of the issues that seem to pervade Facebook where personal attacks appear to have become the norm. The experiences mentioned by John Wright have reinforced my belief that Manx forums should continue to allow anonymous postings and not force contributors down the "real name" route.

I do however agree that recently the majority of postings have been utter tripe mainly focused on tit for tat attacks on other posters. Mixed in with this there have been deliberate attempts to derail topics so others get fed up and stop posting. The number of contributors has fallen and the quality of debate suppressed. Coupled with the issues mentioned by ANS I can see why the mods are questioning whether the forum has any reason to continue.

If Manx forums does continue, and I hope it does, we all need to ensure we abide by the forums rules and debate issues and not people. I do not have any answers on how  to ensure this happens and am not tech savvy to suggest whether there is a way to use technology to stop multiple accounts, but a ban should affect all connected accounts to any user. 

[Albert Tatlock]

My opinion, followed by a couple of suggestions.

I have been on the Internet since it first started some 25 years ago, 11 years of that on MF. I’ve seen the internet move from the ideals of a limited number of, predominately IT guys, extolling the virtues of the free flow of speech, information and mutual help, to its current form of a mix of those original ideals but now open to all the good and bad aspects of society.

Years ago, I had a Radio Amateur licence. This was only open to those who were dedicated to studying the technology, who would often have to learn Morse code, and then take exams – before they even got their voice on air. No doubt if there had been no licence requirement, anonymity, and the freedom to just buy some equipment and go on air, the results would have been similar to what has happened on the Internet.

MF is not the only organisation suffering the pains of being open to anyone who can buy new or second-hand computer equipment for peanuts, the same people who are expected now to conduct their lives online with not just banks and shops, but when paying income tax or paying their rates to government etc. If your rates go up you can’t just type “you’re all wa**ers” on a government website, but if on MF where anonymity, invisibility, and a lack of authority are present, you are disinhibited so feel you can do so.

These days, 50% of people get their news, and often their views, from social media, while also getting so many different versions of the ‘truth’. And it’s where so many people get angry about things and feel their typing always actually means something to a greater extent than is the reality. It is always going to be hard to find a balance between protecting anonymity and constructing consequences for abusive behaviour.

Another major issue, not just on the Isle of Man, is apathy. Apathy drives bad behaviour on social media. We can get nearly 2000 people joining an online Manx Gas protest group, yet struggle to find 1 leader, let alone 50 actual demonstrators. It is of course easier just to type some Manx Gas and government vitriol and move on to the next target, having felt you’ve typed and actually ‘achieved’ something. The same can be said about any major issue. Not many of us get off our arse and deliver thousands of leaflets at election time, or turn up at a demonstration, or actually write to our MHK about something. Instead of just moans, I'd like to see more users getting together to do something about an issue sometime, MF has a lot of power in that respect and has had involvement in such things in the past.

There have been major changes in the last 10 years, most noticeably in Internet abuse, harassment, and even stalking. There are even people who can be considered normal on here, who do things that seem fun at the time but that have implications. I’ve done that a few times in 11 years myself. We all want to say it’s always just the bad guys or trolls - but a few beers, or an argument with the wife or partner or missing that promotion etc. - can often cause us to type something we might not normally type. In general, 1 in 4 four of us will suffer mental health problems at some stage, some permanently. The majority of people think online abuse problems and trolling will either stay the same or get worse.

But we really need MF. Otherwise much truth, analysis and accountability will disappear from our lives. It is read widely, by far more people than maybe most of us might think  - especially in government, business organisations and by our local media.

So - what can we do about things, here on MF, to improve things? These are a couple of things I think might help and maybe worth discussing (and wonder if they are technically possible).

• Build in more user-policing/moderation: Instead of ‘Sad’ and ‘Confused’ in the emoticons available offer ‘Offensive’, ‘Consider Edit’, ‘You didn’t read my post properly’ or other such emoticons, and maybe even ‘Banhammer’ so that if enough (10+?) longer term registered users (with >100 posts say) suggest a ban, this might aid changing some behaviours. Count them and make them available to the user profile. While some members might likely try and abuse this, the final decision should be with the moderators.

• New registrations: After joining, limit posting into regular forum threads until you have posted 20 posts – those newer posters could be assessed by moderators, say on a monthly basis. Ideally, new posts could be stored in a new registrant’s thread with only a link to that post in any regular thread. This would discourage creating another account after a ban and the content and style of new posts might help identify such accounts.

• If we need more money, consider a life member, annual, unemployed, pensioner, open (minimum 50p) type subscription. But ensure payment details cannot be pulled off so that one day any ‘rogue moderator’ or hacker cannot get access to the details and hand them to someone, but users remain traceable in case of libel etc.

• Let us know what is possible technically with the forums and maybe suggest a few additional options to debate?

 

[Albert Tatlock]

The massive increase in mobile phone technology and cheaper data in recent years has not helped either. People can type in the pub, on a coffee or fag break, waiting at an airport etc. We are exposed to a far greater number of daily different emotions than someone having to go home and log in during the evening or having to be more careful and conscientious in their postings using a work computer. Mobile phones allow us to fire postings from the hip - anytime, anywhere.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, ans said:

Tarne, I think you might have missed the entire point of the clause then

It was never about preventing sockpuppets. Ultimately, there are enough free vpn services out there which anyone can use to register a new account with a new IP,  you end up having to  kick them back off after you'd checked the other things the forum logs. That's a manual process though and not all mods have access to the admin area. 

The clause was trying to discourage the pollution of every thread with accusations of sockpuppets, which always rapidly descended into ad hominem attacks. I really don't want to get into any specific debate about any individual posters, but I would ask you to look at your last warning and the post you made and ask yourself if that was helpful and contributed to the discussion in a positive way. Go back to the first page of that thread and check out the fourth post. It's that sort of stuff we wanted to stamp out. 

I had a ban the other week and I haven't the faintest idea why.

If I did know then I could set boundaries.

[quilp]

3 hours ago, P.K. said:

I'm sure I'm not alone in being absolutely appalled by the above.

Personally attacking folks for trying to keep what should be a fun place alive is an absolute disgrace.

I hope this place remains somewhere where I can continue to express my somewhat quirky sense of humour.

John Wright's revealing post relating his experiences was a problem I'd not considered. The extremes some obsessives will go to in order to satisfy their narcissism and self-regard are quite extraordinary.

Appalling, yes.

[Tarne]

2 hours ago, ans said:

It was never about preventing sockpuppets.

And yet that is the root cause, especially of the harrassment that John had.

[piebaps]

I can only echo most of what's already been said. The place has been going downhill for a little while and action is needed. Personal harassment is absolutely disgraceful - its only an internet forum FFS, but if the terminally stupid are unable to see that, then we have to legislate for them.

We all need to take responsibility for the future and I'll happily support any measure except real name posting which I can't do.

If the forum closes - Geoff Corkish wins!

[craggy_steve]

@ans/ mods - I'm not anonymous - I may use a "handle" on the forum but I've not been shy about declaring my identity - but I think that there are many who would justifiably not be comfortable stating their cogent, interesting and valuable opinions if they were required to post under their real names. Small island, bullying etc. 

I think Facebook is no substitute - some of the gang bullying on there is really pretty appalling - so there is an enduring need for something like Manx Forums. Like others I get Island news and insights from here  which I wouldn't get from elsewhere.

I sympathise and empathise with the mods, I'm a mod elsewhere (not FB !!!) and it's never easy - clowns from here abusing the mods via other channels is unacceptable.

I have curbed my posting here over the past couple of years because the high volume of trolling and abuse (not of me) inhibits participation.

A modest registration / membership fee paid by an identified online account even though the forum persona uses an alias could well be an effective means of curbing the sockpuppets and would be worth it if it restored sanity to the forums. 

FWIW, Steve