Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[Vulgarian]

 

Whatever you happen to think of Islam or Judaism, what the state of Israel has perpetrated in Palestine is no less than invasion, theft, and mass expulsion, all backed by Western powers.

 

This justification of the invasion by spurious historical argument features heavily in Zionism. It is frankly laughable. So a thousand years ago Jews were living in Palestine? It's like me trying justify an invasion of Norway based on the fact that some of my ancestors may have come from there, or indeed an invasion of the Caspian Steppe based on the hypothesis that Indo-European language originated there.

 

Read post 25 where I already refuted everything you have said here.

 

I read it and quoted it in reply to you. The fact there is historical evidence for the presence of Jews in present day Israel is no justification for what the state of Israel has done in Palestine, which is to use this shaky premise as an excuse for land-grabbing, expulsion of the previous inhabitants, and persecution of them.

 

I'm no fan of Hamas either, or indeed radical Islam, but I do support the cause of ordinary peaceable Palestinians who are the victims of Israeli aggression and expansionism.

[Chinahand]

 

Hamas and those who have made defeating Israel a centre piece of their religion are just as bad.

 

Just as bad? Is that all? Try a hundred thousand times as bad.

Jewish fundamentalism is just as bad as Islamic fundamentalism.

 

Thank goodness Israel isn't (yet) a Jewish fundamentalist state and there are other more moderate factions within its political process. The Palestinian political process is far more skewed to religious extremism, but that is partly the result of a deliberate policy of the War Party in Israel which is partly made up of Jewish fundamentalists who see it as a divine commandment to re-establish "Greater Israel", demolish the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Jewish Temple.

 

These people have set out to destroy moderate Palestinian factions as they do not want to have a partner for peace. The settler movement is dominated by such a mind set, which sees it as a religious duty to seize ever more land, even in the face of an ever more radical Palestinian response.

 

The settler movement doesn't want a land for peace compromise, nor the establishment of a moderate Palestinian government willing to draw up a peace map.

 

The more I've read on Israel, the more I've seen a violent religious fundamentalist element within its politics which does not seek a settlement.

 

It is only a part of Israeli politics, and less zealous factions might be able to bring peace, but the Jewish extremists are just as certain God is willing their violent expansion as Islamist extremists are certain they will receive virgins in Heaven for opposing it.

 

Evil, if you ask me, but such is fundamentalism.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Chinahand

[pongo]

 

Thank goodness Israel isn't (yet) a Jewish fundamentalist state and there are other more moderate factions within its political process.

When you write "yet" it makes it seem as if Israel is moving towards that. But it isn't.

 

 

The settler movement doesn't want a land for peace compromise, nor the establishment of a moderate Palestinian government willing to draw up a peace map.

There is not one single settler movement. Some settlers would apparently (they say) be happy to live under a Palestinian govt. It is the geography of where they live which concerns them and not the nature of the state.

 

It's worth noting that many fundamentalist Jews cannot serve in the military for religious reasons. And that many Israelis are exasperated with them.

 

Peace will only happen when those who oppose the existence of the modern Israeli state choose to stop making war. The whole mindset needs to be fast forwarded. In which case there would be no need for a two state solution.

 

... a deliberate policy of the War Party in Israel which is partly made up of Jewish fundamentalists who see it as a divine commandment to re-establish "Greater Israel", demolish the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Jewish Temple.

War Party ? This is an extremely minority perspective. Rather like saying that British policy is considerably influenced by the UFO wing of the Liberal Party.

[Chinahand]

 

... a deliberate policy of the War Party in Israel which is partly made up of Jewish fundamentalists who see it as a divine commandment to re-establish "Greater Israel", demolish the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Jewish Temple.

War Party ? This is an extremely minority perspective. Rather like saying that British policy is considerably influenced by the UFO wing of the Liberal Party.

No I do not think that is accurate. Parties like Jewish Home, Shas, and the religious parties like United Torah Judaism and National Union are not the UFO wing of the Liberal Party - they fundamentally reject a two states solution. The more right wing elements of these parties are politically powerful and pretty firmly believe in a religious Greater Israel built via Palestinian dis-empowerment. They wish to fight to establish what they see as a religious inevitablility.

 

Yes, this is a minority opinion in Israel, but is far more powerful than the UFO wing of the Liberal Party - I feel a better analogy would be UKIP and the EU; personally it is pretty frightening that politics can become so dominated by aggressive colonization; but I do not think such an attitude is so far from the truth in Israeli politics.

[pongo]

The fact remains Chinahand that the action which Israel is taking has nothing to do with settlers etc. It's about Israel being under constant attack. Hamas is not about the settlers. It is about Israel's existence. The settlers are essentially a distraction in this context. Hamas does not attack Israel because of the settlers.

 

It is certainly true that the Hamas rockets, so far, are not particular effective and that the Israeli response has resulted in many civilian casualties. How would you stop the Hamas attacks ? Israel should not have to defend itself against these attacks.

 

(FWIW - I am not convinced by the two state solution either. Partly because in many ways it seems like a Clinton era idea which has passed. And partly because peace will only come from everyone accepting the permanence of Israel. In which case the ideal solution is that everyone lives in a single, economically viable, secular state.)

[spook]

It was when hamas started firing rocket types a whole lot different from the kassam things that were able to hit the major Israeli cities that the game changed. This happened recently and is what gave Israel no option but to commence this attack on the nest of terrorists in Gaza city.

[Bananaman]

The BBC at it's best (i'm assuming it's not to offend more touchy religions).

 

What I don't get is what random mortars, qazzam rockets, suicide bombings and recent abductions and murder of children (and they were children(and I'm dubious of the revenge murders too)) are they meant to do? Jeez, I was just up the road when this herbert killed himself with two taps to the noggin from a 9mm, wasn't a good time to be a manx lad with an english accent I can tell you.

 

What I'm trying to say is - aren't the Palestinians trying to bring on their own bloodshed with a hard bastard that won't back down but if you keep on bombing is we'll stand up to the mark and have it with you?

 

Surely there is a time to talk and surely the religion of peace can have a word with the hotheads of their peaceful background that don't want world domination and just want to grow some ace olives to sit down and have a word with the other hotheads of the other religion that just want to grow oranges.

 

Second thoughts, this is the way the world can unite.

 

 

Major problem with the honeybee at the moment, major problem with that area of the world. Joint effort, save the bee. Nowt Jewish, nowt Isreali, nowt Muslim, nowt Palestinian. They could save us. Maybe we could do a ManxForums effort. Save the bee, save the ongoing Isreali/Palestinian conflict. I'll leave it to you lot to get a better catch phrase.

 

Word

[P.K.]

I suspect that the electorate voted Hamas into power viewing them as protection against the regional superpower next door.

 

However the apparent Hamas policy of "the best defence is attack" is not really very clever. Especially when you are provoking the IDF to strike back.

 

If I was Israeli the civilian casualties in Gaza would appear as fair enough - "You voted them in knowing what they are like - you reap what you sow...."

[alibaba]

If I was Israeli the civilian casualties in Gaza would appear as fair enough - "You voted them in knowing what they are like - you reap what you sow...."

 

If I was an Israeli I'd be thinking murdering these kids is a tad unfair.

[spook]

From what I've gathered hamas were elected on the back of the social services that they were already providing for the (then) fairly normal people living in Gaza city. The little matter of where the funding was coming from was never thought about, nor that there were very soon a whole lot of fresh faces out and about with unusual accents because the corrupt former leaders had been ousted. Nor was the hamas charter taken particularly seriously by the ordinary resident who saw it as being mostly blind rhetoric that no one seriously thought that anyone would stick to.

 

Wrong.

 

Once the rats had got into the feed store it was all change and attacks across the border. The restrictions had to be introduced and the story then started to unfold. Lies about being a glorified prison camp, lies about how everyone was suffering (check out the advertisements for restaurants in Gaza city) lies about food shortages, in fact lies lies lies.

 

And the public swallow it.

 

Since taking a bit of an interest in what's going on and by not relying on single sources of information what I've found out has been amazing. Although of course I find the sight of the innocent suffering so very much, who couldn't, my thoughts about who is to blame now asymptote towards not only the residents of Gaza and the disputed territories but even more so towards their backers amongst whom right now are Qatar in conjunction with Turkey.

 

On that basis the killing and injury taking place right now which undoubtedly IS needed to at least emasculate a very real, present, and actual danger is absolutely down to hamas and their backers.

 

 

What I do wonder is if Israel has had an amazing stroke of luck in finding what would seem to be a whole nest of rat runs that hamas were preparing in readiness for a ground attack into Israel because the number of and sophistication of tunnels built into Israel would seem to, have surprised everyone including the replacement for Mossad.

 

I started this with a mostly open mind, if anything slightly biased against what I read and saw against Israel. Taking time, researching from a variety of sources, and speaking to friends in Turkey, Israel and also Egypt that view has certainly changed. I now believe that while Israel ,may have no LONG TERM future where it is situated, at this time they are absolutely in the right in what they are doing.

 

And before anyone bleats about an un-Christian attitude, don't bother. There is such a thing as a just war, and there is no requirement to continually 'turn the other cheek'.

[quilp]

An admission of the Propoganda Jihad and the way it's spun.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-28198622

 

Re-use of old footage, some of it not even from Gaza, continues the taqiyya.

[Lxxx]

An admission of the Propoganda Jihad and the way it's spun.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-28198622

 

Re-use of old footage, some of it not even from Gaza, continues the taqiyya.

Typical BBC, never letting facts stand in the way of a biased argument.

[Celt]

 

 

That deal was never concluded by the Palestinians and so Israel should now take back the land and as long as they don't want to come to Europe allow any and all Palestinians to leave and go to wherever will take them.

 

 

Or the UN could take back the land they gave the Jews, give it back to the Palastinians and ship all the Jews to the USA.

 

Celt,

 

The land was not given to "the Jews" by the UN. The Jews are the indigeneous people of that land - as confirmed by the archaeological and historical record going back 4,000 years - and the only reason lots of Jews have lived in places like Europe, North America, Ethiopia, and as far east as India and China, is because they were violently expelled from their homeland on multiple occasions: 722 BC by the Assyrians; 586 BC by the Babylonians; and in 150 AD by the Romans. It was the Romans who, after laying waste to the region of Judea, went and renamed it "Palaestina" as part of a strategy to reduce the Jewish identification with the area, as it was a hotbed of Jewish insurrections against the Roman Empire.

 

Who are these "Palestinians" to whom you would "give back" the land? They are the descendants of Arabs who conquered the region during the medieval period and economic migrations from Arab countries who flocked there for work during the late 19th and early 20th century when the early Aliyah movement was underway and the early Zionists were turning what had become a backwater desert area into a bustling agricultural and economic centre. Throughout the last 2,000 years, even after the expulsions, there has always been a continuous Jewish presence in the land, especially in Jerusalem which was the centre of the Jewish civilisation. The city of Jerusalem was built by Jews under the rulership of Jewish monarchs like King David and King Solomon. Not only was there always a Jewish presence in the region, especially around Jerusalem, but there have always been exoduses of Jews back to the land because of persecution in Europe. In 1492, when Columbus was sailing to America, the Jews were violently expelled from Spain during the Inquisition, with many returning to their homeland in Judea, otherwise called Palestine.

 

This word "Palestine" is derived from the "Philistines", an ancient people who have no relationship whatsoever with the current people who call themselves "Palestinian". Actually, for centuries, the term "Palestinian" was used to refer to both Jewish and Arab inhabitants of the area. Arab nationalism didn't take off untill the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after the First World War. Until that time there was little or no notion of "Syrian Arab", "Lebanese Arab", "Iraqi Arab", or even "Turkish" - they were all subjects of the Ottoman Empire. At no point in history since the founding of Islam did the Arabs have national identities (beyond Arab); they had only their local tribal affiliations and a broader identification with a caliphate or ummah (Islamic nation or empire), the last being the Ottoman Caliphate. There was no national Arab group called "Palestinians". It is a post-1948 invention. Prior to the re-establishment of Israel, the term was used only in a regional sense and applied equally to both Jews and Arabs alike. These "Palestinians" are Arabs, they are not indigeneous to that region. Arabs come from the Arabia, as Jews come from Judea.

 

Also, back in 1948, there were more Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews expelled from Arab states and who fled to Israel than the number of Arabs who fled the area of Israel. Something like happened with India and Pakistan would have been the best outcome, but the surrounding nations instead banded together and tried to wipe Israel off the map and then refused to integrate the Arab refugees into their own borders, whereas Israel had integrated the Jewish refugees (from Arab countries) into its borders - and so we are left with a deliberately perpetuated refugee crisis which is entirely the fault of the Arab nations yet is blamed on Israel. I would also like to point out that Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews (from Middle Eastern and Arab areas) make up 50.2% of the Jewish population of Israel, compared to 47.5% who are Ashkenazi Jews (European) and that is based on 2009 statistics, meaning the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews are a majority even after the mass influx of Jews from the former Soviet Union in the 1990s, which means throughout Israel's history, its Jewish population has been majority Middle Eastern, which refutes the oft-repeated claim that Israel's Jews are Europeans who've stolen and colonised land from Middle Eastern people. The facts simply do not support such outrageous distortions of reality.

 

Why would the Jews be sent to the USA? They are not indigeneous to the USA. They are from Judea.

 

Your comments are ill-informed and offensive.

 

D.C.

 

 

 

 

The Jews are the indigeneous people of that land? No there are not. They are indigeneous to modern day Iraq as that's where they came from, the region of Mesopotamia. Some Greek sources even thought they could have originated from India. After the Exodus from Eqypt and fighting amoungst themselves, they eventually formed what could be called a Nation is around 1300BC. Jerusalem was already built when King David made it the Capital, however, Soloman is credited with building the first Temple. You say they are from Judea? So they are not from Israel then as those Tribes dissapeared to leave only Judea. The Lost Tribes of Israel ring any bells?

 

In 587BC the Babylonians capture Jerusalem and exiled the Jews back to Iraq from whence they came. So in fact they only had what you would call a Nation for some 800 years. Not bad though for what was once Nomadic tribes. The the UN give them the land in Israel due to the volume of mis-placed jews after WW2.

 

As for sending the Jews in Israel to the USA? Since it is the Jewish owned Federal Bank funding them, why not. Giving a group of people someone elses land was wrong no matter how you want to see it with your indoctrinated views. Imagine bringing all the exiled Scots who were Cleared from the Highlands back and giving them the land which was rightly theirs. I'm pretty sure the Scots wouldn't start blowing up innocent people to get back their lands.

 

Which ever way you look at it, nothing gives then the justification to blast the hell out of innocent people with missile when they have enough ground forces to go in and take out Individuals. Nothing whatsoever.

 

Ill informed? Doubt it. Offensive? Only if you believe the shoite the Media put out and only see things from one side.

[D.C.]

Izzy, I am very sorry that someone living on this island called your people Nazis. They do not speak for all of us. The sort of language being used against Jews and Israel lately sounds hauntingly familiar to anyone who watches the History Channel.

 

Lxx, the people on here and on Facebook aren't just criticising the Israeli Government. A lot of them are opposing the very existence of the state of Israel and it's all getting mixed in with paranoid conspiracy theories about Jews. Using the term "Zionist" has become a get out of jail free card for badmouthing Jews.

[D.C.]

The Jews are the indigeneous people of that land? No there are not. They are indigeneous to modern day Iraq as that's where they came from, the region of Mesopotamia. Some Greek sources even thought they could have originated from India. After the Exodus from Eqypt and fighting amoungst themselves, they eventually formed what could be called a Nation is around 1300BC. Jerusalem was already built when King David made it the Capital, however, Soloman is credited with building the first Temple. You say they are from Judea? So they are not from Israel then as those Tribes dissapeared to leave only Judea. The Lost Tribes of Israel ring any bells?

 

In 587BC the Babylonians capture Jerusalem and exiled the Jews back to Iraq from whence they came. So in fact they only had what you would call a Nation for some 800 years. Not bad though for what was once Nomadic tribes. The the UN give them the land in Israel due to the volume of mis-placed jews after WW2.

 

As for sending the Jews in Israel to the USA? Since it is the Jewish owned Federal Bank funding them, why not. Giving a group of people someone elses land was wrong no matter how you want to see it with your indoctrinated views. Imagine bringing all the exiled Scots who were Cleared from the Highlands back and giving them the land which was rightly theirs. I'm pretty sure the Scots wouldn't start blowing up innocent people to get back their lands.

 

Abraham came from Mesopotamia. His descendants were the Jews (via Isaac) and the Arabs (via Ishmael). The Jewish civilisation developed in the area that is now Israel and the West Bank, while the Arab civilisation developed in the Arabian Peninsula. If you really want to say the Jews are indigeneous to Mesopotamia, you also have to concede that the Palestinians are indigeneous to Mesopotamia as well, since they all descend from the same patriarch. Your argument is incoherent. I refer you back to post 25 where I explained the demographics of Israel. They are majority Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews. It is their land. They have had a continuous presence there for at least 4,000 years - all despite multiple forced expulsions and attempted genocides against them.