Lack Of Road Safety Strategy...

[WTF]

1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

"....improving driving standards doesn't require a speed limit."

This is truly the elephant in the room, and something we are going to have to get over. The favoured strategy is "Safe System". This begins from a target that no road traffic collision should result in a fatality - which to be honest, has to be the only one worth having. As part of that safe system, all options have to be on the table - including providing a risk assess based speed limit - or no limit if that can be seen to be appropriate. 

If you have a strategy, and then post-fatal collision inquest, the Coroner asks "Would a restriction on speed have made a difference here?" and the answer is "Yes, but we're special here and we don't want to wreck tourism/fun/individual choice" then the Coroner is bound to cite an Article 2 failing in his judgement. 

There are many of my fellow petrolheads that don't like my stance on this issue. But most of them haven't had to deal with it from my perspective. 

We desperately need this strategy, and we cannot leave those charged with delivering it, denied every option. 

 

speed limits don't stop someone pressing the pedals in their vehicle if they choose to. GPS could sort that.

 

how many fatal incidents have happened inside of current speed limit areas with the vehicles involved complying with said limits?   i don't think it's none.

[Supamanx]

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but a speed limit was put on Ballamodha following a couple of fatal accidents, I seem to remember that in addition to driving too fast for their ability, both times the driver hadn’t passed their test and obviously weren’t insured, they also happened at night time. 

I’m currently teaching two of my grandchildren to drive, in addition to them having ‘proper’ lessons, they are progressing very well and I’m quite confident and relaxed when out with them, I’m teaching them to actually drive and not just pass their test ! They go to an official instructor to help pass their test, mostly in a limited speed area on certain routes.

I do think that there should be additional experience once they have passed their test as going from a controlled environment to being on their own, or with ‘mates’ they are obviously going to try things and learn by their mistakes, sometimes with disastrous results. The fact that they officially can’t go over 50 will in most cases be ignored, how many times have you been overtaken by a car with R plates ? 

My father taught me to drive, he was a bus driver and also ingrained in me to expect the unexpected and what to do if something did happen and how to avoid it.  A few hours at Jurby being taught car control and basic maintenance knowledge should be instigated.

i’m a long in the tooth petrol head pensioner and drive ‘stupid’ gas guzzling old cars, I stick to speed limits but also enjoy driving to my ability when there are no limits, driving should be fun but within your ability - when I passed my test my first target was to see how fast my car went - it was an 803 cc Morris Minor so I reached 40 mph downhill with the wind behind me ! Unless things have changed with time I should imagine most young people today have a similar aim when they get their license ? The problem is their first cars are rocket propelled in comparison with my moggy and they don’t know what to do when they lose control. Most speed accidents occur in the dark when nobody is watching, are any tests taken at night time ? My final comment is that education is more important than speed limits !

 

 

[The Duck of Atholl]

6 minutes ago, Supamanx said:

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but a speed limit was put on Ballamodha following a couple of fatal accidents, I seem to remember that in addition to driving too fast for their ability, both times the driver hadn’t passed their test and obviously weren’t insured, they also happened at night time. 

I’m currently teaching two of my grandchildren to drive, in addition to them having ‘proper’ lessons, they are progressing very well and I’m quite confident and relaxed when out with them, I’m teaching them to actually drive and not just pass their test ! They go to an official instructor to help pass their test, mostly in a limited speed area on certain routes.

I do think that there should be additional experience once they have passed their test as going from a controlled environment to being on their own, or with ‘mates’ they are obviously going to try things and learn by their mistakes, sometimes with disastrous results. The fact that they officially can’t go over 50 will in most cases be ignored, how many times have you been overtaken by a car with R plates ? 

My father taught me to drive, he was a bus driver and also ingrained in me to expect the unexpected and what to do if something did happen and how to avoid it.  A few hours at Jurby being taught car control and basic maintenance knowledge should be instigated.

i’m a long in the tooth petrol head pensioner and drive ‘stupid’ gas guzzling old cars, I stick to speed limits but also enjoy driving to my ability when there are no limits, driving should be fun but within your ability - when I passed my test my first target was to see how fast my car went - it was an 803 cc Morris Minor so I reached 40 mph downhill with the wind behind me ! Unless things have changed with time I should imagine most young people today have a similar aim when they get their license ? The problem is their first cars are rocket propelled in comparison with my moggy and they don’t know what to do when they lose control. Most speed accidents occur in the dark when nobody is watching, are any tests taken at night time ? My final comment is that education is more important than speed limits !

 

 

And who assesses what your ability is? there are plenty of people out there both young and old who think they are better drivers than they are. also the fact that some people have been qualified to drive for a very long time doesn't necessarily make them better drivers.

Anyone who thinks speed limits don't save lives should consider this RoSPA fact sheet https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/drivers/20-mph-zone-factsheet.pdf The reduction of speed in urban areas to 20 mph would save lives. Also considering the size of the Island does anyone need to be going above 40mph? If speed is your thing go on a track day up at Jurby.

[Yibble]

1 hour ago, craggy_steve said:

No data or definitive capacity or horsepower requirement. Simply an incentive to all motorists who wish to drive "better" vehicles to first upgrade their training / skills. Allow people to drive on the basic license, but only to drive "lower performance" vehicles unless they upgrade to an "Advanced Driver" status.

Surely it would make more sense to target drivers more likely to cause accidents, rather than those who happen to be affluent enough to drive "better" vehicles?

[La Colombe]

33 minutes ago, Supamanx said:

 Most speed accidents occur in the dark when nobody is watching,

Really? I'd have thought most speed accidents, in particular the ones involving fatalities, involve motorcycles in broad daylight. 

[dilligaf]

32 minutes ago, Supamanx said:

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but a speed limit was put on Ballamodha following a couple of fatal accidents, I seem to remember that in addition to driving too fast for their ability, both times the driver hadn’t passed their test and obviously weren’t insured, they also happened at night time. 

I’m currently teaching two of my grandchildren to drive, in addition to them having ‘proper’ lessons, they are progressing very well and I’m quite confident and relaxed when out with them, I’m teaching them to actually drive and not just pass their test ! They go to an official instructor to help pass their test, mostly in a limited speed area on certain routes.

I do think that there should be additional experience once they have passed their test as going from a controlled environment to being on their own, or with ‘mates’ they are obviously going to try things and learn by their mistakes, sometimes with disastrous results. The fact that they officially can’t go over 50 will in most cases be ignored, how many times have you been overtaken by a car with R plates ? 

My father taught me to drive, he was a bus driver and also ingrained in me to expect the unexpected and what to do if something did happen and how to avoid it.  A few hours at Jurby being taught car control and basic maintenance knowledge should be instigated.

i’m a long in the tooth petrol head pensioner and drive ‘stupid’ gas guzzling old cars, I stick to speed limits but also enjoy driving to my ability when there are no limits, driving should be fun but within your ability - when I passed my test my first target was to see how fast my car went - it was an 803 cc Morris Minor so I reached 40 mph downhill with the wind behind me ! Unless things have changed with time I should imagine most young people today have a similar aim when they get their license ? The problem is their first cars are rocket propelled in comparison with my moggy and they don’t know what to do when they lose control. Most speed accidents occur in the dark when nobody is watching, are any tests taken at night time ? My final comment is that education is more important than speed limits !

 

 

I agree with all of that apart from the fatal accidents down on the Ballamodha

Pretty sure the worst of them was in the afternoon in good light

Really sad that one

[craggy_steve]

2 minutes ago, Yibble said:

Surely it would make more sense to target drivers more likely to cause accidents, rather than those who happen to be affluent enough to drive "better" vehicles?

I think ideally the requirement would be to target all motorists, but accepting that because being permitted to drive is such a significant enabler there needs to be a catch-net to accommodate the minority who because of need, capability or resource cannot upgrade themselves to the greater level of competency expected for the privilege of driving a bigger / higher-performance vehicle.

[craggy_steve]

2 minutes ago, La Colombe said:

Really? I'd have thought most speed accidents, in particular the ones involving fatalities, involve motorcycles in broad daylight. 

Really? Speed "accidents" involving motorcycles may be more commonly fatal due to the lack of rider protection afforded by a motorcycle, but motorcycles are a small minority on the roads. Dunno the stats for IoM but in the UK there are typically c. 25 new cars registered per year for each new motorcycle. Cars are far more numerous, are driven more (higher mileage per annum per vehicle), and are involved in far more (and fatal) RTCs.

[La Colombe]

This is about a road safety strategy for the island, not the UK. I'm pretty confident I'm correct in what I wrote.  

[La Colombe]

I'm also confident that most of them involved speeds that would be highly illegal in the UK. 

[Andy Onchan]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

I’m fairly certain the way it will go will be insurance incentives by way of lower premiums if you take and pass advanced motoring/cycling courses every few years. 

I’d also expect regular official re-testing.

Finally, and possibly the most effective, will be insurance companies insisting on fitting trackers, with premiums related to which roads the car is driven on, nature of driving, speed, time of day, distance. etc. as well as age, experience and claim free years.

Ah..... the BIG DATA nut, eh? How will that work when cars are driver-less and incapable of creating an accident? 

[John Wright]

35 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

Ah..... the BIG DATA nut, eh? How will that work when cars are driver-less and incapable of creating an accident? 

Didn’t say I approved. Actually I wouldn’t be a fan. Pragmatically it’s what will happen and is being trialled on young drivers by some insurers already 

[Gee Cee]

As regards speed limits - well the faster you are going, the more it is going to hurt when you hit something.

If the driver is the only one involved in an incident, then someone is bound to say "he knew the risks he was taking".

The problem is that all too often, innocent people become involved. 

Some people drive like idiots. The government has a duty to protect the innocent from the idiots by imposing speed limits. 

 

[Derek Flint]

2 minutes ago, Gee Cee said:

As regards speed limits - well the faster you are going, the more it is going to hurt when you hit something.

If the driver is the only one involved in an incident, then someone is bound to say "he knew the risks he was taking".

The problem is that all too often, innocent people become involved. 

Some people drive like idiots. The government has a duty to protect the innocent from the idiots by imposing speed limits. 

 

Absolutely. art. 2 Human Rights Act. This administration doesn’t seem to understand its responsibilities in that arena.

[Shake me up Judy]

Yawn. We've been over this many times before. It's not just speed per se, but the differential speed on Island roads that creates danger. If you consider motorway driving, the safety is mostly in the fact that most drivers are travelling at roughly the same speed for their lane. Motorways only work if cars keep moving en masse. As soon as someone hits the brakes everyone stops; as soon as some lunatic goes too fast it's the same consequential result, because at some point somebody will have to hit the brakes.

Was driving over the mountain recently, doing about 50-60mph. Slowed down to about 5mph because with traffic coming the other way there wasn't room to safely pass a couple of cyclists. They were doing nothing wrong and riding sensibly. The view of any cars behind me was limited as it was only just past a blind bend. Fortunately the next car following was able to jam the anchors on and a collision was averted. Differential speed.