Organ Donation - Yes unless it's a No, No.

[kevster]

If you don't like it - opt out.

[Gladys]

1 minute ago, Apple said:

When expertise and safeguards are in place then I would probably share that view. Until then, it a No. As per my first post. 

But what are you frightened of?  A professional will correct me, but to be pronounced dead does not consist of holding a mirror over your mouth, I think two nurses have to agree that life is extinct.  I don't know about when a doctor attends, but I do know that for the elderly or those approaching the end of their life, there will be an end of life plan by which a doctor will confirm that death is not far away and so death can be confirmed by the nurses in attendance.  The doctor will later issue a death certificate, why would it be any different for organ donation? 

[Neil Down]

9 minutes ago, Apple said:

When expertise and safeguards are in place then I would probably share that view. Until then, it's a No. As per my first post. 

1. what expertise

2. what safeguards

[slinkydevil]

55 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

I don't think anyone would want my liver

Maybe with some fava beans and a nice Chianti?

[John Wright]

41 minutes ago, Apple said:

Please don't make assumptions. I will describe my opinions in the way I determine, not based on anyone else's assumptions and language changes. We still had free speech last time I checked. 

Your question should be directed at Mr Perkins et al and see if it goes into the bill. If the law says not then there you go. I can live (or die) with that.

 

 

 

It’s nothing to do with Perkins. Anyway I want a rational discussion, which I know I could have with you. Not with a lame duck politico.

I asked a question, you agreed to answer if I answered your questions. I did. You may not agree, indeed your much more cynical about Noble’s than I. But it’s all we’ve got.

Now you’re ducking and diving. Stop trying to imitate BoJo.

Whats your answer?

For what it’s worth my view is the two positions are irrelevant to one another. Treatment under the NHS is based on clinical need, not moral, philosophical or political viewpoint or opinion. 

I ask the question because it’s being floated around on FB as if the two are connected.

[x-in-man]

The Isle of Man Government.

They take the money out of pockets, the shirt off your back and then still rip your heart out after you’re dead.

[Apple]

Perkins - It is described as his bill. I said Perkins et al. I do not contribute to FB.

The issues of End of Life, Capacity and Consent are all tied in with this issue. The island is nowhere near ready in any of those areas to support the GMC's ethical position statement and  policies on organ donation in my view.  

I am more than happy to rationally debate the issues with you or anyone else. We all know it is an emotional subject and with deeper psychological impacts than what has been identified so far. It can not be subject to black and white decisions, in or out, but each and every case will require careful deliberation that our NHS is not yet capable of. And really you and I both know that. 

You are right - Nobles is all we've got and my experience has flavoured my opinion. Don't mention people being described as DNR without all the relevant discussions.

For what it's worth, I expect any person to be treated with whatever means irrespective to what they opt in or out beforehand based on clinical need. Permissions and Consent can be changed whenever a person wishes to. 

By the way, I take organ donation to be about organs from predominantly people who have died but also from those still alive. Post donation care and the risks of immunosuppression I know you are probably more experienced in than me.

[monasqueen]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

TBH, they can have anything useful from my body after I am dead.  In fact they can have the whole lot. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Apple said:

When expertise and safeguards are in place then I would probably share that view. Until then, it's a No. As per my first post. 

I won't have any cares about expertise or safeguards at the time, because I'll be dead. I won't have any need for any part of my body, and whoever wants it can have it, faults and all. I don't even think I'll be in any position to care about what happens to the final remains.

[Two-lane]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

And if you needed a transplant? Should those who opt out of donating be opted out of receiving?

This is a significant point of view, and should be considered at a national level also.

The UK law changed either this year or last to opt-out. So why should Manx residents be entitled to a transplant from a UK donor if the reverse is not also possible?

[Apple]

13 minutes ago, Two-lane said:

So why should Manx residents be entitled to a transplant from a UK donor if the reverse is not also possible?

Ethically, if it is needed to save their life, why should they not be.? Is it probably a bit like blood donation but there is no withdrawal of that when someone is not a blood donor. We import some blood products for use here by anyone that needs it.

 

2 hours ago, Gladys said:

But what are you frightened of?  A professional will correct me, but to be pronounced dead does not consist of holding a mirror over your mouth, I think two nurses have to agree that life is extinct.  I don't know about when a doctor attends, but I do know that for the elderly or those approaching the end of their life, there will be an end of life plan by which a doctor will confirm that death is not far away and so death can be confirmed by the nurses in attendance.  The doctor will later issue a death certificate, why would it be any different for organ donation?

I am not frightened of anything related to this issue as long as the GMC procedures are adhered to by all the medical staff and managers. As for the rest of the post I am well aware of the processes and the pitfalls associated with them. So is Nobles. I am not sure that all the politicians are aware of the current problems in these areas. 

We have no patient independent advisory process, no health and social care regulator and insufficient public communication and information when problems do occur. As for the current complaints system it is I understand not meeting the government time response targets but I am happy too be corrected on that a if anyone can.

No wonder 98% agreed, although I know my family and I were not consulted. Perhaps all the previous posters were. 

 

 

[Banker]

I think this is a good initiative as there is a shortage of organs for transplants and when someone has died it’s difficult to then ask the bereaved for permission 

[TheTeapot]

I don't know how to ask sensitively, but in normal years do they err, stock up with ice for TT?

[WTF]

as the NHS can't afford to do all the more regular stuff like hips and knees etc in good time i don't see how even more organs can afford to be transplanted.  i can see how the NHS would sell your organs to the highest bidder to subsidise itself and i can see how some injured persons with just the right  biological match to wealthy people may not survive their recently incurred  natural or even unnatural injuries,  medical records may highlight persons in high value donor categories,  it could end up like hunting albinos in africa for body parts.

[wrighty]

A lot of nonsense in this thread, as usual.

Most organ donors are patients with head injuries or catastrophic brain haemorrhages.  They're 'alive', as in their heart is beating, but on ITU on a ventilator.  Their brain is dead.  There are established tests for this, and they have to be carried out twice, at separate times, with more than one doctor involved, and there has to be no sedative drugs going etc.  It's all very tightly regulated.

Organs are harvested by a visiting team from the UK, usually in the evening or at weekends, with a separate theatre team.  Transplant surgery is highly specialised, and not something we do on island.  None of the IOM surgeons are involved.

Personally I think 'opt out' is the right way to go.  Rational people don't believe their bits are required after death, and relatives are usually comforted that their loved one's death is not completely pointless and a few people have been given life because of it.

Count me in.

[wrighty]

7 minutes ago, WTF said:

as the NHS can't afford to do all the more regular stuff like hips and knees etc in good time i don't see how even more organs can afford to be transplanted. 

A kidney transplant is cheaper than a lifetime of dialysis.