Hospitality Call to Arms!

[Max Power]

8 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

I get what you're saying. As I said already, I wouldn't be opening another cocktail or coffee place here. The market is saturated. 

But then there are some unique little places in each town. 

Fynoderee in Ramsey. Foraging Vintners and Kerroo in Port Erin. Miller's Tale and Black Dog Oven in Peel. 

I think there's plenty of scope for these type of places. Perhaps cuisines that aren't catered for, from a restaurant point of view. 

So whilst I partially agree, I'd caveat it with the point above. 

There are some great places, and some have already shut down. The cake is only so big, and everyone wants a slice of that small cake, which diminishes the viability of all of their businesses. Those who do it well and invest, still suffer and need resources to hang on, only for a few competitors to close, and others spring up in their place!

[Anthony Ingham]

3 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

...it's chicken and egg. You need the hospitality here in the first place for these people to want to come over to eat, drink and whatever else. As it stands, the industry has indicated they will have significant issues in being here, should the present situation continue. 

The truth though is, it's unlikely they'll increase the population by anywhere near the amount they want to anyway. 

This might not be very popular in certain circles, but there are plenty in hospitality who could help themselves.

Often places don’t answer phones (get an answerphone ffs) have a decent online presence (it’s free) or even open when they are meant to.

When they are open some are rude and offer poor service, dirty surroundings etc etc so people don’t go back if they even bothered to go in the first place.

Even more brutal, some of the worst offenders are those who are shouting loudest.  Yes there are issues that need addressing, but at the same time people need to take responsibility for themselves and get the basics right.

[jackwhite]

5 minutes ago, Casta said:

Was a rep from 1886 or Jaks at the meeting?

Jaks, yes. 

[jackwhite]

1 minute ago, Anthony Ingham said:

This might not be very popular in certain circles, but there are plenty in hospitality who could help themselves.

Often places don’t answer phones (get an answerphone ffs) have a decent online presence (it’s free) or even open when they are meant to.

When they are open some are rude and offer poor service, dirty surroundings etc etc so people don’t go back if they even bothered to go in the first place.

Even more brutal, some of the worst offenders are those who are shouting loudest.  Yes there are issues that need addressing, but at the same time people need to take responsibility for themselves and get the basics right.

I'm not going to say every hospitality business is perfect or even good, I get it. 

I think every business could do things better. I don't think most of these people are saying that. This was a large collective of hospitality though. There were plenty of very good businesses there. Some I frequent. I was surprised to find the extent of some of their struggles. 

[TheTeapot]

58 minutes ago, Moghrey Mie said:

Hospitality owners also need to take some responsibility. If they see training as a 'burden' it does not bode well for the sector.

They need to be training their staff and creating career paths for those who wish to work in the industry.

 

It is not training that is the burden.

What they are rightfully complaining about here is Constable Kens alcohol awareness course, and there absolutely needs to be push back on this.

This is an extra career and profit opportunity entirely invented by a former police officer. He has created a course which all responsible persons must attend. It is expensive and lasts two days. In this course constable ken 'teaches' people who have sold alcohol for thirty years how to prepare their premises for a CS Gas attack. 

Of course everyone wants pubs, clubs and off licences to have responsible staff, trained in how to spot potential issues and head them off, to be aware of the law and not to sell alcohol to people who shouldn't have it. But that training already existed before the rules got changed, and this expensive, unnecessary and very petty mandatory course was invented.

A common complaint over the years has been one of 'double dipping'. I'd argue that inventing a problem for which you and only you have the solution and then forcing everyone to pay for it through some legislation changes that magically happened without anyone really noticing is worse.

 

 

[Derek Flint]

2 hours ago, Gizo said:

Blame the pigs not government on the decline of the nighttime economy.  

Bollocks.

The turn of the Millennium was the start of the decline. That said, Douglas was like the bloody wild west when I first started policing it in 98, and I'd come straight from Blackpool Licensing Unit!

Standards needed to improve and they did. The frequency of people getting the shit kicked out of them went down.

2 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

Too many places now for the shrinking amount of disposable income which is causing people to be more selective and less frequent in their socialising involving hospitality.

Think back ten, fifteen years and what it was like then. Even more so if you go back further to the boom years of the finance sector.

...and this. Which links to the decline i highlight.

2 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

I read about the ability to change alcohol duty on locally produced products a while ago, but I've never been able to find it again. I had always thought that because of the common purse agreement we were kind of stuck with English and Welsh rates but it's not true. There's a clause. That is something that should happen immediately.

It can be done. 5% on domestic building stuff for example.

2 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

It is not training that is the burden.

What they are rightfully complaining about here is Constable Kens alcohol awareness course, and there absolutely needs to be push back on this.

This is an extra career and profit opportunity entirely invented by a former police officer. He has created a course which all responsible persons must attend. It is expensive and lasts two days. In this course constable ken 'teaches' people who have sold alcohol for thirty years how to prepare their premises for a CS Gas attack. 

Of course everyone wants pubs, clubs and off licences to have responsible staff, trained in how to spot potential issues and head them off, to be aware of the law and not to sell alcohol to people who shouldn't have it. But that training already existed before the rules got changed, and this expensive, unnecessary and very petty mandatory course was invented.

A common complaint over the years has been one of 'double dipping'. I'd argue that inventing a problem for which you and only you have the solution and then forcing everyone to pay for it through some legislation changes that magically happened without anyone really noticing is worse.

 

 

That's interesting. Ken set up a very worthwhile licensing consultancy. I thought the College was providing the Victuallers training and it was certified by the BIIAB? Has that changed?

If Ken is the only licensed provider it is hardly his fault.

[jackwhite]

22 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

It is not training that is the burden.

What they are rightfully complaining about here is Constable Kens alcohol awareness course, and there absolutely needs to be push back on this.

This is an extra career and profit opportunity entirely invented by a former police officer. He has created a course which all responsible persons must attend. It is expensive and lasts two days. In this course constable ken 'teaches' people who have sold alcohol for thirty years how to prepare their premises for a CS Gas attack. 

Of course everyone wants pubs, clubs and off licences to have responsible staff, trained in how to spot potential issues and head them off, to be aware of the law and not to sell alcohol to people who shouldn't have it. But that training already existed before the rules got changed, and this expensive, unnecessary and very petty mandatory course was invented.

A common complaint over the years has been one of 'double dipping'. I'd argue that inventing a problem for which you and only you have the solution and then forcing everyone to pay for it through some legislation changes that magically happened without anyone really noticing is worse.

 

 

There is a suggestion this might somehow be funded somehow in future. 

It should be looked at but, given we've only had a licensing law review very recently, it won't be anytime soon. 

Just one point, it doesn't last two days any longer. It's one day on the course with the first part online. 

9 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

Bollocks.

The turn of the Millennium was the start of the decline. That said, Douglas was like the bloody wild west when I first started policing it in 98, and I'd come straight from Blackpool Licensing Unit!

Standards needed to improve and they did. The frequency of people getting the shit kicked out of them went down.

...and this. Which links to the decline i highlight.

It can be done. 5% on domestic building stuff for example.

That's interesting. Ken set up a very worthwhile licensing consultancy. I thought the College was providing the Victuallers training and it was certified by the BIIAB? Has that changed?

If Ken is the only licensed provider it is hardly his fault.

Not sure I understood the last point, but it's definitely provided directly by Kneale Limited only, not the college. Maybe you meant the course was drawn up by them and just delivered by Kneale Limited. 

Edited April 19 by jackwhite

[Ringy Rose]

2 hours ago, jackwhite said:

know nothing about the situation in Jersey or Guernsey, other than they don't have it. Since you have greater knowledge, what is it about these two that's so different that means we couldn't implement a similar system here?

We have a VAT treaty with the UK which means that we have to charge the same rates of VAT as they do.

The building supplies reduction to 5% wasn’t an IOM initiative.

The Channel Islands are not in a VAT treaty with the UK.

[Mongoose-Man]

3 hours ago, Anthony Ingham said:

A decent statement making some valid points, especially regarding tax thresholds and low earners.

Unfortunately, statements like “. We reject the notion that the Island’s government cannot amend our VAT system when our fellow Crown Dependencies have zero or 5% sales tax rates” undermine the whole thing and show a basic lack of understanding of the VAT arrangements here and in Jersey.

The other CD’s aren’t in the common purse.

Edited April 19 by Mongoose-Man

[Mongoose-Man]

3 hours ago, Andy Onchan said:

They make some very valid points and Treasury should take heed unless they wish to see unemployment levels rise creating further pressure on the coffers.

I think that would actually help - full employment means it’s difficult to get staff which they are saying is part of the problem.

[WTF]

1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

 

Standards needed to improve and they did. The frequency of people getting the shit kicked out of them went down.

 

yes , a few older coppers 'retired'      😁

Edited April 19 by WTF

[Harry Lamb]

21 minutes ago, Mongoose-Man said:

I think that would actually help - full employment means it’s difficult to get staff which they are saying is part of the problem.

Someone dug up Thatcher?

[Max Power]

2 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

Bollocks.

The turn of the Millennium was the start of the decline. That said, Douglas was like the bloody wild west when I first started policing it in 98, and I'd come straight from Blackpool Licensing Unit!

Standards needed to improve and they did. The frequency of people getting the shit kicked out of them went down.

...and this. Which links to the decline i highlight.

It can be done. 5% on domestic building stuff for example.

That's interesting. Ken set up a very worthwhile licensing consultancy. I thought the College was providing the Victuallers training and it was certified by the BIIAB? Has that changed?

If Ken is the only licensed provider it is hardly his fault.

I used to enjoy a night out in Douglas at that time, you're right, it changed around Millenium time, which coincided with 'Project Trident' which was too heavy handed in my opinion. Dragging scouse bully bouncers over to give kids a kicking for questioning them, closing the doors to new admissions at 1am, upping lighting levels to ruin atmosphere, destroyed the Venue, Paramount, Toffs etc and killed off Douglas nightlife in general. If the police call 'trouble' a lot of people on the promenade late at night, then I'd agree, but the actual trouble must have been very small in comparison?

I was out and about most weekends, and never saw any fights, never felt threatened at all. Instead of going after the troublemakers, which I suppose must have existed if you say so, they sucked the life out of the place, for ever!

[Derek Flint]

41 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I used to enjoy a night out in Douglas at that time, you're right, it changed around Millenium time, which coincided with 'Project Trident' which was too heavy handed in my opinion. Dragging scouse bully bouncers over to give kids a kicking for questioning them, closing the doors to new admissions at 1am, upping lighting levels to ruin atmosphere, destroyed the Venue, Paramount, Toffs etc and killed off Douglas nightlife in general. If the police call 'trouble' a lot of people on the promenade late at night, then I'd agree, but the actual trouble must have been very small in comparison?

I was out and about most weekends, and never saw any fights, never felt threatened at all. Instead of going after the troublemakers, which I suppose must have existed if you say so, they sucked the life out of the place, for ever!

I presume you mean Op Centurion as opposed to the Metropolitan Police black-on-black gang violence unit.

Centurion was a pain in the arse on a number of levels. A bit primitive in some areas, but it did improve standards. Not sure where you get the 'scouse bouncers' thing from ?

The biggest issue was the IOM was bouncing then. There weren't enough cops to meet the demand of policing that time of night time economy.

 

[finlo]

6 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

I presume you mean Op Centurion as opposed to the Metropolitan Police black-on-black gang violence unit.

Centurion was a pain in the arse on a number of levels. A bit primitive in some areas, but it did improve standards. Not sure where you get the 'scouse bouncers' thing from ?

The biggest issue was the IOM was bouncing then. There weren't enough cops to meet the demand of policing that time of night time economy.

 

That's because they disappeared off with drunken stray waifs to remote places!