So the UK is finished says Theresa Mayhem

[Barrie Stevens]

9 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

Point to these rules or concrete examples of unwritten rules of EU funding being put into practice. I say horseshit, so prove otherwise.

The fact is, it’s horseshit, and whatever passport or status I or you or the man on the moon holds, it’s still horseshit. 

An unwritten EU rule?????

[Barrie Stevens]

9 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

How would you know? The IOM has never been prepared to join the EU and accept its rules for doing so, neither have you.

Tynwald Library has a great collection of material regarding IOM compliance with EU and EEC/EC rules..

[Barrie Stevens]

16 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said:

I would very much like you to post evidence that the IOM pays contributions into the EU budget...And likewise that it receives some input or benefit in return. Also I have never received a tax demand from the EU nor its predecessor whether in UK or IOM. How much has the IOM paid the EU since 1994 out of interest.?

I posted the above having misunderstood you. ie rhetorical....The IOM has a limited relationship with the EU etc It is essentially about trade, business and relevant regulation and certainly the vast mass of what comes out of Brussels does not apply. The IOM neither pays in nor receives. Not obliged to. I refer you to the governing document Protocol 3...The Free Movement restrictions have been greatly watered down by the Island itself in recent years as regards work permits. There is hitherto unused legislation regarding licensing of residential accommodation which is Protocol 3 compliant. This was intended to control migration. Some years ago the IOM wanted to regulate bread and its prices and which had to be referred to the European Commission which basically knocked it back and said no. Protocol 3 link below..

https://www.gov.im/media/80578/protocol_3.pdf

[Barrie Stevens]

9 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Isle of Man adheres to rules on Government (State) aid to particular sectors does it?

As I recall the EC/EEC/EU does have a facility to monitor so called state aid but in the case of the Offshores and not just Crown Dependencies does recognise their certain special needs and they being so small is prepared to be lenient by way of interpretation. I have read this in Tynwald library some time...

[Barrie Stevens]

9 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Really? IOM is in U.K. (Your full stops).

 

It is often said in Tynwald or by Govt Ministers that for such and such a purpose the Island is in the UK or EU depending. This is what JW means...

[John Wright]

9 hours ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

How much EU tax contribution have you (not other half) paid since 1973?

(Not indirect VAT etc, Direct EU annual contributions to EU budget - I am happy to use EU in house figures to prove IOM contributions to EU annual budget).

Which EU rules ( employment, discrimination etc. etc. ) have you operated within since 1973 in your Douglas will writing service?

Since 1973, has your legal practice operated strictly IAW with;

a) IOM law

B) EU law

?

Since 1973 has IOM law courts operated under;

a) Eu law

b) IOM law

?

 

 

Wow, you’re angry.
 

Feels like I’m being stalked.

But yet again your grasp is poor. I’ve said that the IoM relationship with the EU is governed by Protocol 3 to the Treaty of Rome. To the extent necessary to apply and interpret the EU Treaties, in accordance with Protocol 3 competencies, then EU treaties and directives apply in Manx Law, by statute ( there are dozens of Acts of Tynwald that transpose EU law into Manx Law ) or by direct application of directives.

Taxes. The EU does not have any tax raising powers. It doesn't raise tax directly or indirectly. Tax is within the competency of national governments, which have a veto on changes. It does require some consistency, VAT is required and bands are recommended so as not to distort trade.

No the IoM doesn’t contribute into the EU budget, or receive any benefits out. But I’ve contributed directly and indirectly because I pay direct tax in Bulgaria and Spain ( for which I get unilateral relief in IoM ).  And I’ve spent money and bought goods and services in about 20 of the 28 member states. More than that I’ve had to submit and claim reverse charge EU supply VAT forms in respect of acquisitions and supplies from/to the EU.

My will writing business is part of my legal practice. To the extent EU laws apply they have been  observed. I’ve benefited because EU laws required liberalisation of professions and cross border liberalisation of delivery of services, recognition of qualifications and requalification. As a result I’ve been able to qualify as a solicitor in England, Northern Ireland and Ireland and be recognised to practice as an EU lawyer elsewhere. And no the IoM doesn’t reciprocate. 
 

Within my practice and my judicial sitting I apply both IoM and EU law as appropriate to the circumstances and facts. I also apply other international laws if Manx Law says I should. Isle of Man Courts apply EU law as required by Protocol 3 and have the power to refer cases to the EU courts for determination of EU law issues. Those powers are used. Work Permits, ice cream regulations, bread price controls, red meat derogation, spring to mind. And when I’ve sat in relation to work permits ( entitlement of recognition of same sex de facto marriages/partnerships for permit entitlement ) and social security ( that was sex discrimination relating to maternity/paternity benefits in case of surrogacy/adoption - the U.K. regulations were being referred at the time )  I’ve been urged to make such referrals, but haven’t found it necessary. So yes, where relevant, under Protocol 3, Manx Courts are subject to, apply, and are part of, EU law and legal systems.

You ask about state aid. In theory, within Protocol 3, yes, the rules apply. Does the IoM government provide state aid of a market affecting/distorting nature?

Sorry my use of old fashioned grammar convention of full stops in the contraction U.K. confuses you ( and Barry ). There is a U.K. IoM Customs Union, the IoM is in it. There is one combined territory. The U.K. is in the EU customs union and VAT territory. It’s a sort of Ven diagram of interlocking circles.

As for freedom of movement, that was the deal we struck following the U.K. accession negotiations in 1970-72 and the Kilbrandon Report. There is freedom of movement, not freedom of work. Yes EU lawyers can’t pitch up and appear, not even U.K. ones, but the EU law position on services, and mutual recognition of legal qualifications, is little different. Try being qualified in one country and appearing before the courts of another. For that matter try doing it cross internal borders in the constituent parts of the U.K.

[Barrie Stevens]

12 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Wow, you’re angry.
 

Feels like I’m being stalked.

But yet again your grasp is poor. I’ve said that the IoM relationship with the EU is governed by Protocol 3 to the Treaty of Rome. To the extent necessary to apply and interpret the EU Treaties, in accordance with Protocol 3 competencies, then EU treaties and directives apply in Manx Law, by statute ( there are dozens of Acts of Tynwald that transpose EU law into Manx Law ) or by direct application of directives.

Taxes. The EU does not have any tax raising powers. It doesn't raise tax directly or indirectly. Tax is within the competency of national governments, which have a veto on changes. It does require some consistency, VAT is required and bands are recommended so as not to distort trade.

No the IoM doesn’t contribute into the EU budget, or receive any benefits out. But I’ve contributed directly and indirectly because I pay direct tax in Bulgaria and Spain ( for which I get unilateral relief in IoM ).  And I’ve spent money and bought goods and services in about 20 of the 28 member states. More than that I’ve had to submit and claim reverse charge EU supply VAT forms in respect of acquisitions and supplies from/to the EU.

My will writing business is part of my legal practice. To the extent EU laws apply they have been  observed. I’ve benefited because EU laws required liberalisation of professions and cross border liberalisation of delivery of services, recognition of qualifications and requalification. As a result I’ve been able to qualify as a solicitor in England, Northern Ireland and Ireland and be recognised to practice as an EU lawyer elsewhere. And no the IoM doesn’t reciprocate. 
 

Within my practice and my judicial sitting I apply both IoM and EU law as appropriate to the circumstances and facts. I also apply other international laws if Manx Law says I should. Isle of Man Courts apply EU law as required by Protocol 3 and have the power to refer cases to the EU courts for determination of EU law issues. Those powers are used. Work Permits, ice cream regulations, bread price controls, red meat derogation, spring to mind. And when I’ve sat in relation to work permits ( entitlement of recognition of same sex de facto marriages/partnerships for permit entitlement ) and social security ( that was sex discrimination relating to maternity/paternity benefits in case of surrogacy/adoption - the U.K. regulations were being referred at the time )  I’ve been urged to make such referrals, but haven’t found it necessary. So yes, where relevant, under Protocol 3, Manx Courts are subject to, apply, and are part of, EU law and legal systems.

You ask about state aid. In theory, within Protocol 3, yes, the rules apply. Does the IoM government provide state aid of a market affecting/distorting nature?

Sorry my use of old fashioned grammar convention of full stops in the contraction U.K. confuses you ( and Barry ). 

JW You should have put a hyphen between U.K. and IOM or else people will get wrong end of stick when flashing through Forumese language. I thought I did well to get you off as one might say...

[John Wright]

7 minutes ago, Barrie Stevens said:

JW You should have put a hyphen between U.K. and IOM or else people will get wrong end of stick when flashing through Forumese language. I thought I did well to get you off as one might say...

I absolutely refute that you’ve ever “got me off”. Pervert.

Wrong end, wrong stick.

[Manximus Aururaneus]

Firstly, for absolute clarity John, I am neither angry with you or anyone else, neither am I stalking you or anyone else. I come on here for what, to me, is light-hearted if somewhat robust banter after a long day of much more serious stuff - a bit of relief, nothing more.

There is a very simple way to test whether or not the IOM is or is not in the EU and the answer is not really debatable.

See if IOM pensions qualify as EU pensions, which, if IOM were a member, they would. Here is the link direct to the EU's own page on it.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire-abroad/state-pensions-abroad/index_en.htm

Try clicking on the link for IOM in the 'Ask National Administrations' section. It doesn't seem to work for me for some reason??

Some people on here may wish that they were part of the EU. Some have actually convinced themselves that there are members of the EU. Sadly, that is a delusion.

We have over 1,000 pages of opinion from 'experts' on the EU. Turns out that they are debating the membership rules of a club to which they do not, and never have had, membership rights. That must be sad for them. The Golf club analogy comes to mind.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Manximus Aururaneus

[John Wright]

16 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Firstly, for absolute clarity John, I am neither angry with you or anyone else, neither am I stalking you or anyone else. I come on here for what, to me, is light-hearted if somewhat robust banter after a long day of much more serious stuff - a bit of relief, nothing more.

There is a very simple way to test whether or not the IOM is or is not in the EU and the answer is not really debatable.

See if IOM pensions qualify as EU pensions, which, if IOM were a member, they would. Here is the link direct to the EU's own page on it.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire-abroad/state-pensions-abroad/index_en.htm

Try clicking on the link for IOM in the 'Ask National Administrations' section. It doesn't seem to work for me for some reason??

Some people on here may wish that they were part of the EU. Some have actually convinced themselves that there are members of the EU. Sadly, that is a delusion.

We have over 1,000 pages of opinion from 'experts' on the EU. Turns out that they are debating the membership rules of a club to which they do not, and never have had, membership rights. That must be sad for them. The Golf club analogy comes to mind.

Never mind. Your comprehension is not so good. Under Protocol 3 the IoM is in for some things and not for others.

Pensions are not something to which Protocol 3 applies. We can each choose things that show, for that thing, the IoM is in, or out. Proves nothing.

You have to go back to Protocol 3. But it isn’t the be all, or end all. Many things have been, or could be, extended or applied voluntarily. Or have not. EHIC extension could have been agreed to apply. It wasn’t. I think that may have been the IoM.

[Barrie Stevens]

4 minutes ago, Manximus Aururaneus said:

Firstly, for absolute clarity John, I am neither angry with you or anyone else, neither am I stalking you or anyone else. I come on here for what, to me, is light-hearted if somewhat robust banter after a long day of much more serious stuff - a bit of relief, nothing more.

There is a very simple way to test whether or not the IOM is or is not in the EU and the answer is not really debatable.

See if IOM pensions qualify as EU pensions, which, if IOM were a member, they would. Here is the link direct to the EU's own page on it.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire-abroad/state-pensions-abroad/index_en.htm

Try clicking on the link for IOM in the 'Ask National Administrations' section. It doesn't seem to work for me for some reason??

Some people on here may wish that they were part of the EU. Some have actually convinced themselves that there are members of the EU. Sadly, that is a delusion.

The Island has a limited relationship with the EU via Protocol 3 so please read it. In the EU etc referendum IOM residents were told that they could not vote to leave or remain something of which the Island is not a part. Tho some had retained the right to a UK vote. No one has said the IOM is in the EU as such but it is certainly umbilically joined. 

You keep picking issues where the IOM is out whereas you should look at areas where it is in as it were.

As I said, plenty of EU adopted, accepted, adapted EC-EEC-EU rules in boxed sets on the shelves of Tynwald library and also includes Directives where applicable. The IOM could not even control the supply and price of bread without referring to the European Commission.  

When the EU came into being in 1994 following Maastricht it was decided that there should be no changes to Protocol 3 which the IOM had quietly asked for to facilitate greater access to the Single Market for Services ie Financial and fiscal etc

The IOM under CM Sir Miles Walker signed the Maastricht Treaty of 1993 setting up the EU. I asked IOM GOVT if I could read it and they got it out of the safe for me by appointment. There is a mass of complexity in it.

If and when the UK leaves the EU, the IOM relationship with the latter will dissolve so be concerned as to what sort of relationship you will have post-Brexit. IF that is the UK and EU are kindly disposed because they only let you have Protocol 3 in 1973 to help the UK solve the problem of what do about the Crown Dependencies which did not want to observe the Four Freedoms.  S So they opted out of the planned Single Market. It was a compromise. There may be very little goodwill next time round. If the UK seizes the moment to make changes it could be cold outside.

 

[manxman1980]

@Manximus Aururaneus

If you read the comments from the regular commenters on this thread, from both sides of the debate, you will realise that they have all lived/worked in the UK, have business interests that involve working in the UK/EU, had a vote in the 2016 referendum and UK general elections before and after that date.

Therefore whether or not they think Brexit is a good idea it impacts upon them.

You also show a total lack of understanding regarding the Isle of Mans relationship with the EU via protocol 3.

You should also realise that the Island tends to follow UK legislation/regulations and therefore indirectly introduces EU regulations.

[John Wright]

27 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

@Manximus Aururaneus

If you read the comments from the regular commenters on this thread, from both sides of the debate, you will realise that they have all lived/worked in the UK, have business interests that involve working in the UK/EU, had a vote in the 2016 referendum and UK general elections before and after that date.

Therefore whether or not they think Brexit is a good idea it impacts upon them.

You also show a total lack of understanding regarding the Isle of Mans relationship with the EU via protocol 3.

You should also realise that the Island tends to follow UK legislation/regulations and therefore indirectly introduces EU regulations.

It’s his pink hair and purple beard that have addled his brain. Only explanation for him posting the same reply on 4 separate occasions yesterday. That or too much sauce.

[woody2]

remoan media......

"moderate"= anti democratic remoan mp......

"extremist" = democratic mp......

[manxman1980]

I see the UK Government have updated there media campaign.