maynragh Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 10 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: Actually when I wondered who was in charge it, I meant on the government side doing the project management. But I was astonished to discover (if it is true - I couldn't find anything to confirm) that the main contractor was a local general builder. Because while there obviously aren't any specialists on the Island, that's far from the case in the UK - as you would expect with so many swimming pools there. As usual nothing is so niche that it doesn't have its own trade association - and sub-associations and committees and trade magazines and pan-European organisations and trade shows and technicians associations and the inevitable awards ceremony. In the normal course of things you would expect whoever is in charge of the NSC and the Island's other pools to not only be aware of this but use this to investigate possible contractors and also to find out where they had done work recently , talk to local authorities or commercial pool operators who had similar projects done and so on. It's the sort of exercise that most people go through when they're getting a new kitchen fitted, never mind running a £4.2 million refit. So by appointing a local company to do this specialist job, at best they're just giving a mate the position of an unnecessary middle man so he can cream off his 10% or whatever. At worst they're setting the whole thing up as a disaster. This isn't a job with specialist elements - this all specialisms. But of course the real problems (and solutions) in any such project lie with the management. I don't think we can just shrug our shoulders and sigh about communication. Communication is what is supposed to lie at the heart of these people's jobs. There seems to be a cultural problem here (and more generally in Britain) where communication is basically seen as a way of selling a story rather than passing on information. Similarly there is an absence of any desire to take responsibility - hence the lack of any names and indeed the continued absence of Cregeen. In theory IOM Gov could have simply tendered the whole package out to an off island specialist, however there's no guarantee that would have avoided the balls up we've seen here (I've seen a lot of specialists fuck things up - indeed I used to work for a specialist who did on almost every job. All management generated / information related I should add), and in my experience a certain amount of local knowledge can - should - improve the overall efficiency of a project in the IOM context. In addition, it should be the case that the value of IOM reputation works in our favour - which is why the fact these things are not discussed and those who are actually fucking things up remain faceless is actually feeding the problem. The problem with the idea that an off island specialist would 'get it right' is that off island specialists will still be reliant on information supplied (or not) from the IOM - and I would guess almost all of them would draw a line there. That is my experience of specialists - they want someone else to provide their data, for all the wrong reasons. Its the way almost the entire industry works and is the crux of the problem - you will find, usually in the top right hand corner of every drawing, a disclaimer on the accuracy of the data. It's bullshit. When the delays were first announced at the NSC the blame was laid on the substrate below the supports for the flumes. The first thing that entered my head was - 'well someone built it the first time, there must be survey and construction data from the original build somewhere... why the fuck did nobody look at that?' The only possible excuse would be that the substrate has changed since it was first build. That's not impossible. Highly, highly unlikely but not impossible. However if it were that bad the building would probably be showing signs of stress by now if that were the case, and again if it were that critical (and the load was going to increase so significantly it's caused this problem) it should have been checked before work started. My guess would be it's more likely that basic checks on the existing structure simply weren't done. Either way its just basic engineering 101. The problem has apparently now evolved to a design issue with the levels on the support steelwork itself - again just really really basic stuff - classic tape measure fuck up. If an off island specialist was not supplied with the required data you've got exactly the same cock ups - with the finger pointing back at whoever did not provide the information in the first place. It's the same over and over again in construction. Sadly there is a now a widespread culture of responsibility dodging in the industry, and the normalisation of tendering doesn't help either. Tendering is one of the stupidest ideas ever if you think about it logically. If we were designing the entire process from scratch what would be the best solution? To my mind... a small team of professionals working directly for government (architects & engineers), who's job it should be to fully 'know' all government buildings inside out. It should clearly be part of their job to openly take on responsibility - their name, their face on every project - pay them above average for their role (so that they are inclined to stay in job for life) and give them big bonuses if they bring stuff in on time and on budget. The bonuses will be far less cost than the additional cost of fuck ups. Never, never pick the cheapest tender. And pay bonuses to all contractors if things get done right - retain some of the bonus for long enough to know for sure. If you find the right people (that's a big if) this system works, I've seen it done. Facelessness, transience, not-my-job, looks-ok-from-my-house, it's all starts at the top. In response to other comments above - it's not a Gov specific problem. I've seen just as bad on private contracts. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 @maynragh You might be interested in this podcast exploring the impact of corporate memory loss by forensic engineer Sean Brady which is connected but tangential to your comment. https://bradyheywood.libsyn.com/episode-6-corporate-memory-loss-the-malahide-collapse 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 I initially missed the word "Main" in this headline: https://www.gov.im/news/2019/oct/11/nsc-main-pool-fully-operational/ The boom, which is used to divide the fixed depth floor from the movable floating pool floor, was not able to be lowered since the opening of the main pool in August 2019, due to a fault with the control mechanisms. The engineers from the installation company who had travelled from Holland on Wednesday, worked through the night on Thursday and for a short period on Friday morning to undertake the repairs and necessary testing, whilst minimising disruption to customers. but... The leisure pool and flume rides will remain closed following problems encountered with the flume stairway installation. Discussions continue with the manufacturer and installer in order to resolve this matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hissingsid Posted October 12, 2019 Author Share Posted October 12, 2019 So in simple terms it is fooked. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted October 12, 2019 Share Posted October 12, 2019 3 hours ago, hissingsid said: simple terms Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesultanofsheight Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 On 9/29/2019 at 1:30 AM, parchedpeas said: The Isle of Man - the only place in the world where, if you want a Swimming Pool, you need to order a roundabout. The Isle of Man should be re-named the Island of Clusterfuck - everything government touches turns to shit. They can’t even refurb a swimming pool without creating another costly and embarrassing clusterfuck. The prom = clusterfuck, Laxey = clusterfuck, this = clusterfuck. Even if you ask them to dig a hole in the road it’s a total unmitigated clusterfuck of epic proportions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patient centred Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 18 hours ago, Bobbie Bobster said: I initially missed the word "Main" in this headline: https://www.gov.im/news/2019/oct/11/nsc-main-pool-fully-operational/ The boom, which is used to divide the fixed depth floor from the movable floating pool floor, was not able to be lowered since the opening of the main pool in August 2019, due to a fault with the control mechanisms. The engineers from the installation company who had travelled from Holland on Wednesday, worked through the night on Thursday and for a short period on Friday morning to undertake the repairs and necessary testing, whilst minimising disruption to customers. but... The leisure pool and flume rides will remain closed following problems encountered with the flume stairway installation. Discussions continue with the manufacturer and installer in order to resolve this matter. Code for ‘we screwed up giving you wrong data and now you want more money to rectify your mistake which we haven’t budgeted for. We are now considering who to blame/ how to extricate selves without looking like total tits.’ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Down Posted October 13, 2019 Share Posted October 13, 2019 13 hours ago, thesultanofsheight said: The Isle of Man should be re-named the Island of Clusterfuck - everything government touches turns to shit. They can’t even refurb a swimming pool without creating another costly and embarrassing clusterfuck. The prom = clusterfuck, Laxey = clusterfuck, this = clusterfuck. Even if you ask them to dig a hole in the road it’s a total unmitigated clusterfuck of epic proportions. Yet still they go on unhindered 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) I see the latest comment is that they cannot even give a guesstimate on a completion date. Aside from the original error does this not now also point to a problem with the contract itself and or a lack of desire to use the terms which presumably would be in the contract if it was set up correctly to enable this sort of mess to be dealt with? It simply cannot be possible (or maybe it is) that there is no way for the client to dump a non-performing contractor or sub-contractor given of much this has effectively already cost in lost service. Edited October 22, 2019 by maynragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnuts Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) My guess it's all about who pays . Client government is not paying for the plume and alterations and the manufacture is not paying as it's allegedly not there fault . Neither buging so it's in the hands of lawyers . Which as we all know can go on for years and as it's subject to legal argument nobody can step in and sort it . God there's some incredible cock ups and wasted money on government contracts . And then add to it failure to carry out maintenance ,laxey flooding ,grandstand bridge and radar to name three classics and they wonder why there scratching for money Edited October 22, 2019 by Numbnuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, Numbnuts said: My guess it's all about who pays . Client government is not paying for the plume and alterations and the manufacture is not paying as it's allegedly not there fault . Neither buging so it's in the hands of lawyers . Which as we all know can go on for years and as it's subject to legal argument nobody can step in and sort it . God there's some incredible cock ups and wasted money on government contracts . And then add to it failure to carry out maintenance ,laxey flooding ,grandstand bridge and radar to name three classics and they wonder why there scratching for money Rest assured they'll dream up ways to extract more from us to pay for the latest in a long line of cock ups! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 When did it close? Start of the summer holidays last year? It's fucking pathetic. Anytime I go past with the nipper he wants to go swimming, he's going to grow up more cynical as me at this rate as I explain 'its the governments fault, they're useless'. Just for once wouldn't it be nice for someone (the idiot Cregeen seems to be the mouthpiece) to just apologise and admit that they fucked it up. It's always a list of excuses, probably part based on truth, problems with suppliers, contractors, whatever, it happens, but it has been closed for more than a year for a refurbishment. Utterly utterly hopeless. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maynragh Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Numbnuts said: My guess it's all about who pays . Client government is not paying for the plume and alterations and the manufacture is not paying as it's allegedly not there fault . Neither buging so it's in the hands of lawyers . Which as we all know can go on for years and as it's subject to legal argument nobody can step in and sort it . God there's some incredible cock ups and wasted money on government contracts . And then add to it failure to carry out maintenance ,laxey flooding ,grandstand bridge and radar to name three classics and they wonder why there scratching for money That was sort of my point. Irrespective of who's fault it actually is the contract should (should) be structured in such a way that it can be put to one side. IOMG as client should be able to force it to move forward, even if the fault ultimately lies with them. The fact it is not being forced forward indicates either a problem with the contract, or a lack of desire to use the contract as it should have been set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bees Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Kids can go swimming in the other pools, it’s retro! Like it was in the 70’s when they didn’t have slides n that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 I usually opine that Government couldn't run a bath, in this case however its got bigger apparently it's a swimming pool! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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