Whatnonsence Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 14 hours ago, Derek Flint said: So, let me get this right. you are saying that serving officers have breached Covid regulations and been convicted, and fined? Surely they would have had to appear in court for the sanction to be imposed? The bullying thing I’ll have to an extent. I made an allegation against a senior officer after being directly asked by the CC whether that was what I was alleging. 12 week ‘investigation’ by a civil servant - ‘not bullying’. I wasn’t allowed to see the report, it being deemed ‘not appropriate’ by the Chief Executive. So where do you go after that? You just have to suck it up sunshine, certainly if you still hope to progress your career. It was a very upsetting time. Sometimes it’s just a clash of personalities with a boss and a direct report. Other times, ‘robust’ management doesn’t go as well as it should. Not always easy to resolve in a little force. Others do pursue a vindictive agenda, though I believe that the current SMT are much better in general terms, though I do know of at least one prevailing case that doesn’t seem to be reaching resolution. There is actually very little leadership and management training for any rank. That’s always been a bit of an issue in the cops in most forces, but doesn’t make it right. The investigation of complaints against the police by the public were deemed not fit for purpose following a petition of grievance by an ex police inspector from Manchester. None of the recommendations were ever implemented. I suspected internal complaints are, as you have exampled, not fit for purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piebaps Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 I don't know about selective hearing but he's certainly selective policing. I agree that the approach taken with the protest was probably the most pragmatic solution however, the CC can't decide on a whim to openly ignore breaches of the law. Gatherings were banned at the time of the protest. The organizers should've been arrested and put in front of the magistrates the same way as all the other covid breach cases. You can't reasonably expect the public to follow laws when the police are unilaterally approving breaches. The planned rideout for TT week for example should go ahead on this basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Down Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 51 minutes ago, piebaps said: I don't know about selective hearing but he's certainly selective policing. I agree that the approach taken with the protest was probably the most pragmatic solution however, the CC can't decide on a whim to openly ignore breaches of the law. Gatherings were banned at the time of the protest. The organizers should've been arrested and put in front of the magistrates the same way as all the other covid breach cases. You can't reasonably expect the public to follow laws when the police are unilaterally approving breaches. The planned rideout for TT week for example should go ahead on this basis. So should families be allowed to attend funerals? Sadly 3 friends have passed during this Coronavirus and because we were not immediate family, according to the guidelines/law we could not attend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hissingsid Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 This approval of breaching the current restrictions has certainly diminished the confidence in the Chief Constable in my eyes and many others and sent a dangerous message to people who have been complying with the restrictions a lot of people will now have the attitude if police can approve of breaking the restrictions so can we, in one foul swoop he has lessened the power of the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 4 hours ago, piebaps said: Gatherings were banned at the time of the protest. The organizers should've been arrested and put in front of the magistrates the same way as all the other covid breach cases. You can't reasonably expect the public to follow laws when the police are unilaterally approving breaches. The planned rideout for TT week for example should go ahead on this basis. I hate to break this to you, but the purpose of the police isn't to persecute people of whom you don't approve, but to enforce the law (this is a common misapprehension on Manx Forums). And it would be very difficult to prove that the organisers had broken the law given how the protests were organised. The protesters were organised in groups of ten and practising social distancing. They were following the letter of the law and probably following the spirit of it more closely than most of those shopping in Strand Street because they were wearing masks and gloves. Any attempt at prosecution would probably be unsuccessful and certainly look like political persecution and even worse plain ridiculous. You probably correct that the ride-out could have taken place under the same terms (the danger spots would be gathering and possibly meeting up afterwards) and the police only advised against it rather than banned it. In truth I suspect they were more worried about the usual TT Week problem of locals who hadn't been on their bike since last September rather than disease spreading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: the purpose of the police isn't to persecute people of whom you don't approve, but to enforce the law And even then they have a discretion in most cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hissingsid Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 What is good for the goose is good for the gander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Well I haven't read it but the front page of the Indy is claiming THREE cops broke lockdown and were given warnings. My sources have since told me that at least one - who holds supervisory rank, was given a fixed penalty notice. Professional standards really do seem to be at a low, presently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2112 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, Derek Flint said: Well I haven't read it but the front page of the Indy is claiming THREE cops broke lockdown and were given warnings. My sources have since told me that at least one - who holds supervisory rank, was given a fixed penalty notice. Professional standards really do seem to be at a low, presently. Professional standards may pick up once the current chief constable retires. A new CC who can focus on the job, the force and the islands community, rather than focusing and sucking up to the islands politico’s, and tweetbeat accounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 There's a FoI about it on the website. Can't link it cos of the silly system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, TheTeapot said: Can't link it cos of the silly system. Yeah those damn spongy brainy and finger system thingies often don't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 On 6/9/2020 at 12:18 PM, manxst said: Perhaps Gary has gone on his twitter holiday as he’s aware of the impending media frenzy surrounding the officers who have breached COVID legislation over the last couple of months and been given fines rather than sent to prison like the remainder of the public doing the same, having previously been warned over their COVID period behaviour. Oh no, my bad- that would a) require investigative journalism, b) an honest and transparent FOI request on the IOM, and c) accountability , integrity, and responsibility of senior police officers being called into question. Never gonna happen then.... On the contrary even a you typed (on 9 June) a FoI request was being answered: Quote We write further to your request which was received on 5 June 2020 and which states: "How many police officers have been (A) warned and (B) disciplined for breaches of the Emergency Powers Act since a state of Emergency was first declared on the Isle of Man. What was the outcome of these incidents." Our response to your request is as follows: I have detailed below the information that is being released to you. In answer to (A) 3 and in answer to (B) 0. The 3 officers identified were assessed and dealt with in line with the Police (Conduct) Regulations 2015, given the nature of the incidents they were dealt with in line with the other 450 members of the public who were warned i.e. the 4 ‘E’s approach, they were engaged and educated, this was recorded as per all other breaches at this level. Please quote the reference number 1321209 in any future communications. (Usual linking problems for FoI. Details are: Title: Covid breaches / Public Authority Isle of Man Constabulary / Outcome All information sent / Outcome Date 09/06/2020) Presumably this is the basis of the IOM Newspapers story (our old friend Lorem Ipsum is back in town). Edited to add: The wording doesn't actually exclude any of them being fined as well, as I suspect 'disciplined' was taken to mean police disciplinary action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Flint Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 That response is bizarre. So a breach is a criminal offence, which would be tantamount to gross misconduct, yet it appears no disciplinary action was taken. The only defence could be that the guidelines and law was so badly drafted that even the police couldn’t understand them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, Derek Flint said: 1 hour ago, TheTeapot said: Can't link it cos of the silly system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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