HeliX Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, Chinahand said: They didn't have to leave those that didn't and stayed in what became Israel are the most economically secure Palestinians. How many were allowed to stay when hundreds of thousands were evicted from their homes and land...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrighty Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, Chinahand said: They didn't have to leave those that didn't and stayed in what became Israel are the most economically secure Palestinians. OK, I don't know the history. I know there are Palestinians living in Israel who have houses, jobs, lives... They're the ones that didn't leave. Why did millions then end up being crammed into Gaza and West Bank, and why do Israel want to keep them there, and annex more land at the same time? Did they have a choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, wrighty said: OK, I don't know the history. I know there are Palestinians living in Israel who have houses, jobs, lives... They're the ones that didn't leave. Why did millions then end up being crammed into Gaza and West Bank, and why do Israel want to keep them there, and annex more land at the same time? Did they have a choice? I still have that hard copy of Ten Myths About Israel by Ilan Pappe going spare if you're interested... It's undoubtedly not a pro-Israeli book, but Pappe is a Jewish Israeli historian, and a good one (historian, for the avoidance of doubt) at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxanne Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 9 hours ago, wrighty said: OK, I don't know the history. I know there are Palestinians living in Israel who have houses, jobs, lives... They're the ones that didn't leave. Why did millions then end up being crammed into Gaza and West Bank, and why do Israel want to keep them there, and annex more land at the same time? Did they have a choice? 9 hours ago, HeliX said: I still have that hard copy of Ten Myths About Israel by Ilan Pappe going spare if you're interested... It's undoubtedly not a pro-Israeli book, but Pappe is a Jewish Israeli historian, and a good one (historian, for the avoidance of doubt) at that. I get a lot from reading posts from you both. No matter what the topic, there’s always a lot to learn. And you always keep calm heads too, which is more than I’ve been able to manage on occasion, (or two). I just felt the need to say that. As you were … 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 11 hours ago, manxman1980 said: You know as well as I do that the majority of people in a democracy can vote for other parties but the winner is the one who garners the largest proportion of votes. It's one of the reasons we have been lumbered with a Conservative government on the UK for so long. @manxman1980 Actually Hamas won an outright victory - 74 of the 132 seats available. But yes FPTP is a pretty crap way of doing it. One of the reasons we have had the worst government in living memory and probably forever is because May bribed the DUP with not tory party money but with public money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 2 hours ago, Roxanne said: I get a lot from reading posts from you both. No matter what the topic, there’s always a lot to learn. And you always keep calm heads too, which is more than I’ve been able to manage on occasion, (or two). I just felt the need to say that. As you were … I think I fall short on the calm heads bit... and moreso in anything that involves children since having one of my own. But that's kind, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 39 minutes ago, P.K. said: @manxman1980 Actually Hamas won an outright victory - 74 of the 132 seats available. But yes FPTP is a pretty crap way of doing it. One of the reasons we have had the worst government in living memory and probably forever is because May bribed the DUP with not tory party money but with public money... 74 out of 132 is only 56% of the seats available and they were won with 44.45% of the vote. So clearly not all of the Palestinian population voted for Hamas is 2006. 41.43% voted for Fatah who were clearly pro an independent Palestine but are not Hamas. Then go to the points raised by @HeliX regarding the demographics in Gaza and it should be clear that you cannot possibly say that all Palestinians voted for and supports Hamas. To an extent I agree that hatred is passed down from generation to generation, however, that is made possible by the way that Israel treats Gaza & the West Bank. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 26 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: 74 out of 132 is only 56% of the seats available and they were won with 44.45% of the vote. So clearly not all of the Palestinian population voted for Hamas is 2006. 41.43% voted for Fatah who were clearly pro an independent Palestine but are not Hamas. Then go to the points raised by @HeliX regarding the demographics in Gaza and it should be clear that you cannot possibly say that all Palestinians voted for and supports Hamas. To an extent I agree that hatred is passed down from generation to generation, however, that is made possible by the way that Israel treats Gaza & the West Bank. Thats ridiculous. I've never said ALL Palestinians voted for Hamas. Frankly those that did probably threw away their best chance of a decent settlement which would have been with Fatah. Why is it that some folks are struggling with certain inescapable facts? At the time of the election Hamas was already recognised as a terrorist organisation. Their winning an outright majority, even by an electoral system that we all know is crap, sent out a clear message to the Israelis and the rest of the planet that a lot of Palestinians wanted to continue with armed conflict against Israel for something that was never going to be realised. In other words they had been radicalised. The inhabitants of Gaza call Hamas "Resistance Fighters" and not a bunch of murderous thugs which they undoubtedly are. A clear indication of mindset. The surrounding Arab states, united in a common goal of the annihilation of the State of Israel, kept their Palestinian refugees in their camps as "justification" for their military action. Where they still are seventy years later. The original plan was for three states. Israeli, Palestinian and a special enclave of Jerusalem controlled by an external organisation. Essentially the only one that got up and running was Israel. There were two more serious attempts to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. Which remains the stated aim of Iran. The arab nations were seriously defeated and by force of arms the Israelis ended up with the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Sanai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Sinai was handed back but the rest will probably never be returned and why should they be? Won as they were with the blood of Israelis fighting to prevent their homeland from being destroyed by the arab states. In 1979 a Peace Agreement between Egypt and Israel was reached in Camp David which included Egyptian access to the Sinai Peninsula and access to the Suez Canal by Israeli shipping. It cost the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat his life... IMHO the invasions of the surrounding arab states and their continuing hostility to Israel turned refugee camps into permanent institutions and prevented the formation of a Palestinian State. Iran's continuous hostility towards Israel, plus it's hatred of "The Great Satan" as one of Israel's main backers, means perpetual insurgency and loss of life on both sides... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeteroErectus Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 46 minutes ago, P.K. said: The inhabitants of Gaza call Hamas "Resistance Fighters" and not a bunch of murderous thugs which they undoubtedly are. A clear indication of mindset. That would make the Ukrainians "murderous thugs" too. Annexing North Western Ukraine = Annexing Gaza. Resistance in Ukraine = Resistance in Gaza. It's the same. The only thing that's different is the marketing of the parties involved. Zelesnky and Netanyahu seem to have the upper hand in the media. Image from Yandex (Russia's version of Google) Edited October 18, 2023 by HeteroErectus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 44 minutes ago, P.K. said: Thats ridiculous. I've never said ALL Palestinians voted for Hamas. Frankly those that did probably threw away their best chance of a decent settlement which would have been with Fatah. Why is it that some folks are struggling with certain inescapable facts? At the time of the election Hamas was already recognised as a terrorist organisation. Their winning an outright majority, even by an electoral system that we all know is crap, sent out a clear message to the Israelis and the rest of the planet that a lot of Palestinians wanted to continue with armed conflict against Israel for something that was never going to be realised. In other words they had been radicalised. The inhabitants of Gaza call Hamas "Resistance Fighters" and not a bunch of murderous thugs which they undoubtedly are. A clear indication of mindset. The surrounding Arab states, united in a common goal of the annihilation of the State of Israel, kept their Palestinian refugees in their camps as "justification" for their military action. Where they still are seventy years later. The original plan was for three states. Israeli, Palestinian and a special enclave of Jerusalem controlled by an external organisation. Essentially the only one that got up and running was Israel. There were two more serious attempts to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. Which remains the stated aim of Iran. The arab nations were seriously defeated and by force of arms the Israelis ended up with the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Sanai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. Sinai was handed back but the rest will probably never be returned and why should they be? Won as they were with the blood of Israelis fighting to prevent their homeland from being destroyed by the arab states. In 1979 a Peace Agreement between Egypt and Israel was reached in Camp David which included Egyptian access to the Sinai Peninsula and access to the Suez Canal by Israeli shipping. It cost the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat his life... IMHO the invasions of the surrounding arab states and their continuing hostility to Israel turned refugee camps into permanent institutions and prevented the formation of a Palestinian State. Iran's continuous hostility towards Israel, plus it's hatred of "The Great Satan" as one of Israel's main backers, means perpetual insurgency and loss of life on both sides... Other than some minor points I don't disagree with most of this. I think to be fair you did heavily imply that it was the Palestinian's fault for their supposed support of Hamas. It was a plurality not an outright majority. I don't think that election was a single-issue vote of whether to continue violent action or not, a lot of it was due to the corruption in the existing Government and trying to vote their way out of that. That said, I don't think any of it justifies Israel's current (or ongoing) behaviour towards Gaza's population. Not one bit. And I don't think the current action is going to improve the situation at all, in fact it's very likely to make it considerably worse, and spread considerably wider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 The Palestinian people have no options because whether it be hamas, hezbollah, fatah, the PLO, the PLF, whoever, the old, underlying hatred endures. Each organisation has historically used those peoples as its bargaining chip. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 16 minutes ago, quilp said: The Palestinian people have no options because whether it be hamas, hezbollah, fatah, the PLO, the PLF, whoever, the old, underlying hatred endures. Each organisation has historically used those peoples as its bargaining chip. Not just old hatred enduring, but new hatred being created with every airstrike, with every killed civilian. The muddied water is that there is a valid reasonable point to be made by all those organisations around the unfairness of the displacement and dispossession of the Palestinian people, the ongoing occupation of the West Bank, the oppression of the Gaza Strip and the illegal settlements. Those are valid issues that need valid solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Watching Piers Morgan having rings run round him by a knowledgeable comedian is an enjoyable lunchtime... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 33 minutes ago, HeliX said: The muddied water is that there is a valid reasonable point to be made by all those organisations around the unfairness of the displacement and dispossession of the Palestinian people, the ongoing occupation of the West Bank, the oppression of the Gaza Strip and the illegal settlements. Those are valid issues that need valid solutions. Very very unlikely for the reasons I have stated. Thinking there are valid reasons is simply ignoring reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 1 minute ago, P.K. said: Very very unlikely for the reasons I have stated. Thinking there are valid reasons is simply ignoring reality. You don't think it's valid for Palestinians to be aggreived at the loss of their land, homes, families etc? And to expect there to be some sort of resolution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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