Can the IOM be more independent ?

[Albert Tatlock]

• Would cost tens of £millions to do
• Would cost tens of £millions to run every year
• Would add a third to the civil service workforce
• We haven't got the people with the ability to do it properly

 ...which meets all the usual government criteria so we need to go ahead!

 

[0bserver]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

To avoid the risk of the rabid right, hang ‘em high and flog ‘em brigade implementing any such policies we’d definitely need to be in the ECHR and EU. 

Not sure I want to live in a pariah state.

Is Singapore a pariah state? 🤔

[The Bastard]

1 hour ago, 0bserver said:

Is Singapore a pariah state? 🤔

Interesting point, but I remember the reputational damage to the IoM from the backward legislation against homosexuality back in the day. For a long while after the laws were repealed, lots of conversations with outsiders began with "isn't that the place where they hang gay people ?" or something similar. Last thing we need is the sort of right-wing extremes that would mark out this as a jurisdiction not to be dealt with. Even now, every time Stu Partridge puts his foot in it again, it always makes me think about how fragile reputation is, and how difficult it is to rebuild afterwards.

[John Wright]

2 hours ago, 0bserver said:

Is Singapore a pariah state? 🤔

No. And it’s not a Western European state either. IoM is in the west, all our neighbours and trade ( well 90%+ ) is with the west.

Ive visited Singapore, I’ve friends ther, it’s very clean, and people are generally well behaved, but it’s very antiseptic and the cleanliness and behaviour is under threat of a big stick. It’s driven by fear.

Not somewhere I’d like to stay long.

But even Singapore is moving. It’s proposed to repeal s377A of the Criminal Code ( to legalise homosexuality ). Government oficial position 

“The law is at odds with Singapore's image as an open, diverse global financial hub and multinational companies based in the state have said it would  hinder their efforts to attract talent.” Even the Singaporeans recognise the pariah effect.

[0bserver]

While Singapore urgently does need to legalise same sex relationships, it doesn't mean they're wrong on everything else. 

Hanging nonces would be a step forward and progress. There's literally no downside to it, well except for nonces themselves I guess.

[Non-Believer]

3 hours ago, Apple said:

Public Consultation, or make it an issue of the next general election. One can only hope.

Just like all the other "Public Consultations"..?

[The Bastard]

7 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

While Singapore urgently does need to legalise same sex relationships, it doesn't mean they're wrong on everything else. 

Hanging nonces would be a step forward and progress. There's literally no downside to it, well except for nonces themselves I guess.

Presumably then on to burning witches ?

[0bserver]

26 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

Presumably then on to burning witches ?

You can if you want. 

[momo65]

18 hours ago, GD4ELI said:

And what would you have sone in 1939/ 1940 to defend the CI? It would have been impossible. The IOM was an important asset.

It demonstrated perfidious Alvin's commitment to the rest of the British Isles. It would be no different now. It would be deemed impossible to defend IoM and resources focused solely on England

[Gladys]

11 hours ago, 0bserver said:

While Singapore urgently does need to legalise same sex relationships, it doesn't mean they're wrong on everything else. 

Hanging nonces would be a step forward and progress. There's literally no downside to it, well except for nonces themselves I guess.

Just the phrase "Hanging nonces" tells me there is no debate to be had. 

[Augustus]

57 minutes ago, momo65 said:

It demonstrated perfidious Alvin's commitment to the rest of the British Isles. It would be no different now. It would be deemed impossible to defend IoM and resources focused solely on England

That's a bit harsh. Anyone'd think he had a Jealous Mind.

[Boris Johnson]

13 hours ago, John Wright said:

No. And it’s not a Western European state either. IoM is in the west, all our neighbours and trade ( well 90%+ ) is with the west.

Ive visited Singapore, I’ve friends ther, it’s very clean, and people are generally well behaved, but it’s very antiseptic and the cleanliness and behaviour is under threat of a big stick. It’s driven by fear.

Not somewhere I’d like to stay long.

But even Singapore is moving. It’s proposed to repeal s377A of the Criminal Code ( to legalise homosexuality ). Government oficial position 

“The law is at odds with Singapore's image as an open, diverse global financial hub and multinational companies based in the state have said it would  hinder their efforts to attract talent.” Even the Singaporeans recognise the pariah effect.

Sounds like the island then (Apart from the clean bit)), I wonder how many they jailed for going to the garage or fleeing domestic abuse during the Covid crisis?

[A fool and his money.....]

20 hours ago, GD4ELI said:

Oh really? You should take those rose-tinted spectacles off sometime.

And don't forget the IOM isn't paying a serious defence contribution like grown-up countries do. Pro-rata with the UK this would be ~£55 million per annum based on the 2021 UK defence spending. 

It never ceases to amaze me how at the slightest suggestion we should have a debate including independence (that's all John was suggesting after all), some people who at other times are lucid and rational seem to abandon all logic and rely on any bullshit they can think of in an attempt to prevent any further discussion.

The idea that any move towards independence would require the IOM to spend £55 million on defence is one of the most desperate attempts I have ever heard. Regardless of its suitability for any further independence, the fact is that the IOM is a peaceful and law abiding place who, in its modern history, has never needed defending against anyone, nor is it likely to. The UK (currently responsible for our defence) has not defended us from any military attack in its entire history, indeed the one occasion on which it may have defended a crown dependency, it chose to leave them occupied for several years before making a huge song and dance of "liberating" them after the enemy had safely departed.

In fact it could well be argued that aligning ourselves militarily (via our defence contribution) with one of the most warmongering countries in the history of the planet is by far the biggest threat to our national security and that any move towards independence would reduce our need for "defence" from the almost non existent status  quo.

The idea that we need to spend £55 million on defence to be a "grown up country" is the kind of logic that exists only in the mind of a British colonialist with a bruised ego. 

 

[John Wright]

Just now, Boris Johnson said:

Sounds like the island then (Apart from the clean bit)), I wonder how many they jailed for going to the garage or fleeing domestic abuse during the Covid crisis?

Hundreds, if not thousands. Especially immigrant manual workers, doing jobs Singaporeans feel beneath them, who are housed in dormitory style blocks.

From my experience of the regulations and lock down elsewhere, and my reading of what happened in CI we were at the lower end of severity of sanction.

Bansko, total lock down, armed police and military on all roads out. Took the embassy a fortnight to arrange coaches and escorts to Sofia airport to fly people home. Bulgarians rang up police and alleged various Brit visitors had covid, and weren’t isolating, arrested forcefully tested, detained. The embassy arranged re testing and it proved negative. This included an 8 year old. The BG authorities then conveniently “lost” the PCR results. Paul escaped Bansko 2 days before the lockdown. Drove to Greece, ferry to Italy, then drove to Spain.

Igualada, Spain, similar total lock down. No one in, no one out, for 28 days. Armed police on all roads. Our place is 20km from Igualada. We’ve friends there. 

Similar all over Spain, Italy, Balkans. Having to carry a paper form, or later register an e-form that you were travelling for one of very few bonafide reasons. If you got stopped and weren’t carrying, and didn’t have proof, penalties were severe. 

[A fool and his money.....]

On 11/12/2022 at 6:21 AM, asitis said:

It would be very nice to think we had the skills to pursue greater autonomy. However, Government have proven itself to be incompetent in so many areas over many years, it be folly to assume we could do this !

Sorry but I believe we need the backstop of the UK.

With its famously competent government.