Ghost Ship Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 Have I missed some further developments in the last 24 hours? In the article on gef that was linked to yesterday afternoon it was announced that the misidentification was because the two competitors had been wearing each other's identification discs, but the article went on to add that the coroner was "... not yet able to determine why this was the case" Has it now been revealed that they had deliberately swapped discs as opposed to simply picking each other's discs up by mistake - as a result of, for example, sharing cramped accommodation? (I seem to recall that someone - Gladys? - had already suggested this last week). I'm wondering if I've missed some other announcement(s) from the coroner as I'm not sure why some posters seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the French riders had been stupidly irresponsible and had done it deliberately. Surely it's more likely to have been a mistake than to have happened by design? I'm not sure why there's an assumption it must have been deliberate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnuts Posted June 18, 2022 Share Posted June 18, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said: In the article on gef that was linked to yesterday afternoon it was announced that the misidentification was because the two competitors had been wearing each other's identification discs, but the article went on to add that the coroner was "... not yet able to determine why this was the case" Has it now been revealed that they had deliberately swapped discs as opposed to simply picking each other's discs up by mistake - as a result of, for example, sharing cramped accommodation? (I seem to recall that someone - Gladys? - had already suggested this last week). I'm wondering if I've missed some other announcement(s) from the coroner as I'm not sure why some posters seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the French riders had been stupidly irresponsible and had done it deliberately. Surely it's more likely to have been a mistake than to have happened by design? I'm not sure why there's an assumption it must have been deliberate. I think its been suggested it might be something that french crews do. Swopping their dog tags , superstition or good luck habit maybe. Hoping the surviving crew member can throw some light on it when he's able. All very sad whatever the reason is. Edited June 18, 2022 by Numbnuts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Johnson Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 8 hours ago, Numbnuts said: I think its been suggested it might be something that french crews do. Swopping their dog tags , superstition or good luck habit maybe. Hoping the surviving crew member can throw some light on it when he's able. All very sad whatever the reason is. He is off the critical list now which is the best news of this sorry affair. Next up he will be taking visitors in wards 7, 8 and 11... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piebaps Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 10 hours ago, Ghost Ship said: I'm wondering if I've missed some other announcement(s) from the coroner as I'm not sure why some posters seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the French riders had been stupidly irresponsible and had done it deliberately. Surely it's more likely to have been a mistake than to have happened by design? I'm not sure why there's an assumption it must have been deliberate. The coroner said that they had the wrong discs and didn't know why and asked people not to speculate on social media. This was clearly an invitation for people to speculate on social media. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 44 minutes ago, piebaps said: The coroner said that they had the wrong discs and didn't know why and asked people not to speculate on social media. This was clearly an invitation for people to speculate on social media. Does the reason matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Gladys said: The difference is a circuit does not need to be used for people to go about their business. From an engineering point of view, probably no difference, (well apart from stuff that goes under a road that doesn't go under a circuit) but from an inconvenience point of view, quite a lot. That is not to say safety improvements shouldn't be done, but another sweeping statement doesn't actually add to a sensible debate. The island has long had the chance to develop a world class race circuit, Geoff Duke advised them several times through the 60s, 70s, 80s and the 90s that the Mountain Circuit is not going to be acceptable forever! He drew up plans for Andreas Airfield several times. Several other influential people have advised the government to build a proper circuit to either complement or replace the course, all on deaf ears! More recently, Sam Alder had plans drawn up for a world class track and facilities below Creg-ny Baa. The time to have done it was probably the early 70s, when we had a tourism infrastructure to support a world championship round. The Mountain could have been used for classic racing, lower powered machines, the MGP etc and we would have maintained our motorsport heritage whilst giving respect to the past! It's long been a problem, lack of vision and an ability to persevere to make things work! The Motorsport team of the DofE can only work with what they have, personally I think they have done a great job with the TT and kept it going and relevant! Edited June 19, 2022 by Max Power 3 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Ship Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Declan said: Does the reason matter? I suppose it might matter to the surviving rider. If - for example - he knows that they did not deliberately swap discs and that it must have happened by accident, then if he survives to learn that he and his dead partner are being blamed for the misidentification and subsequent distress to relatives because of his and his partner's stupidity and irresponsibility, then I suppose he might feel unjustly maligned and be distressed himself. I was just surprised - coming back to this thread yesterday evening - that in a lot of posts it seemed to be accepted as a fact that the two competitors must have deliberately (and stupidly) flouted the rules and intentionally swapped discs themselves. Because there had been so many comments previously condemning speculation before all the facts were known, I wondered if I'd missed a further announcement from the coroner yesterday because I knew that the day before she'd said that it wasn't known how they came to be wearing each other's discs. I suspect we'll never know why. Whether that matters or not, I don't know... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passing Time Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Declan said: Does the reason matter? Yes, if only to stop the nutters blaming all and sundry... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambon Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 Kell's Road Racing this weekend. Sad to hear that up and coming racer Jack Oliver died this afternoon in an incident. He was 22. MGP and TT were probably his dream. RIP Jack. God speed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedupwithiom Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 The fact is this was a horrific incident - what is concerning I feel from recent posts is that they were stupid if they allegedly switched tags and being implied it was their fault. Almost trying to justify it and the usual “nothing to see here” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 10 minutes ago, Fedupwithiom said: The fact is this was a horrific incident - what is concerning I feel from recent posts is that they were stupid if they allegedly switched tags and being implied it was their fault. Almost trying to justify it and the usual “nothing to see here” If they switched tags on purpose it was stupid and their fault. If it was by accident it was a tragic mixup and not their fault. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedupwithiom Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 I just hate that whatever the circumstances pretty sure they never envisaged this and certainly didn’t deserve to end their days this way. What worries me is that blame is being shifted on them to deflect from five additional deaths and the cold hard fact that this is an outdated and over commercialised event to which we are all becoming desensitised to cos the show must go on. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 3 minutes ago, Fedupwithiom said: I just hate that whatever the circumstances pretty sure they never envisaged this and certainly didn’t deserve to end their days this way. What worries me is that blame is being shifted on them to deflect from five additional deaths and the cold hard fact that this is an outdated and over commercialised event to which we are all becoming desensitised to cos the show must go on. No, I think a debate has opened up. The blame-shifting is from the perennial "incompetent Manx authorities" to perhaps there was another explanation for the misidentification. The reason behind two crashes at the same point of the course is what a lot are interested in and there may be a great deal to see there. My view is that there has to be an open debate about sidecars competing. They are not road vehicles, is it now time to say they are no longer part of the TT? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedupwithiom Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 yes of course they do but not in the same numbers and maybe not sponsored by the Gov taking selfies of themselves in shades with celebrities and prob no idea of what is happening out on track 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted June 19, 2022 Share Posted June 19, 2022 (edited) Edited June 19, 2022 by TheTeapot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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